Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arms

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Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:49 pm

A couple of things that occurred to me this morning:

- Thieves and Halflings use Luck temporarily and regain 1/day. When Luck gains are given out at the end of an adventure this will increase their permanent Luck score. Is there a hard limit (18, or more?). After a few adventures are Thieves/Halflings likely to have large Luck scores? +1 to +3 per adventure, say average +2/adventure means over 10 adventures (enough to get to 3rd level?) a Thief could have average luck of about 30+.

- In the Warrior section under "Attack Modifier" it says at the end of the paragraph that for multiple attacks the same deed die applies to all attacks in the round. Does this mean that it's only rolled once per round? I'd assumed that it was once per attack, but this now has me unsure from the wording. It seems odd because it means that with multiple attacks, all your attacks in that round (that hit) will successfully be a Deed, or all will fail (depending on 3+ on the die). It could just mean that you always roll the same deed die per attack, but that seems odd wording if so.

cheers,

Mark

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by beermotor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:08 am

I would never let a stat go above 18. Much like levels, with 10th representing a legendary hero, an 18 in a stat is pretty much the pinnacle of whatever your race's abilities are in that stat. (Also, I think it deserves a little discussion that the 3-18 bell curve scale for stats differs between races, for example an 18 str halfling is not as absolutely strong as, say, a 15 strength dwarf, or a 14 strength human. Although he still gets the same bonuses, I guess in homage to Bruce Lee.)

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by finarvyn » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:02 am

beermotor wrote:Also, I think it deserves a little discussion that the 3-18 bell curve scale for stats differs between races, for example an 18 str halfling is not as absolutely strong as, say, a 15 strength dwarf, or a 14 strength human. Although he still gets the same bonuses
Perhaps, but I like to think that the DCC RPG has tried hard not to pin down exact numbers and such in order to avoid such debates.

Once you say "yeah, an 18 STR can do this..." then someone who can do better argues to be a 19. Same with race comparrisons. Does it matter if the maximum dwarf strength is higher or lower than the maximum human strength? Your character's score is X and his bonus is Y and let's play the game.
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:33 am

The main oddness is due to the fact that Thieves/Halflings don't really lose Luck permanently, I assume everyone else will be burning it off at reasonably regular intervals. Even if you limit it to 18 (or some other value), if they get +Luck at end of adventure they are going to hit the maximum sooner or later, while everyone else hovers around 10-12. Maybe that's not a problem, or maybe it's intentional that their Luck becomes really high, I don't know - trying to get a feel for the intention of the rules here.

Halflings with Luck 30+ would be quite amazing, give how they can hand out double Luck bonuses to other members of the party. BTW with only one Halfling "Lucky charm" per party, does that really mean that you pick one halfling, because he then is going to be giving bonuses to others, reducing his own Luck quotient, whereas any other halflings are free to use theirs on themselves?

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:40 am

beermotor wrote:I would never let a stat go above 18. Much like levels, with 10th representing a legendary hero, an 18 in a stat is pretty much the pinnacle of whatever your race's abilities are in that stat. (Also, I think it deserves a little discussion that the 3-18 bell curve scale for stats differs between races, for example an 18 str halfling is not as absolutely strong as, say, a 15 strength dwarf, or a 14 strength human. Although he still gets the same bonuses, I guess in homage to Bruce Lee.)
I've not seen any mention of whether attributes are limited to 18 or not, I guess it's up to GMs to decide. Personally I don't mind if they can go higher, after all Beowulf, Gilgamesh and all the other classical heroes were pretty superhuman.

I quite like the old RuneQuest rule where the upper limit of an attribute is (Attr minimum + Attr maximum) i.e. STR 3d6 has maximum 3+18 =21. Elves who had DEX 4d6 had an upper limit of 4+24 = 28 etc.

Do we know that 10th is really the upper level limit? We still don't know if that reference to 6th level spells is correct or not!

BTW in a D&D Rules Compendium game I'm running, I'm using the house rule that every time a PC levels up, they can pick an attribute, and if they roll over on 1d20, it goes up by 1.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Devil Swine » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:04 am

(Also, I think it deserves a little discussion that the 3-18 bell curve scale for stats differs between races, for example an 18 str halfling is not as absolutely strong as, say, a 15 strength dwarf, or a 14 strength human. Although he still gets the same bonuses, I guess in homage to Bruce Lee.)
Crazy! I mean fine for house rules but not by the book unless I totally missed something.

18 str halfling verse 18 str dwarf arm-wrestling would be a roll of the dice. In other other words...the same unless the die rolled says otherwise!

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by beermotor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:35 am

I disagree, but that's just me... I prefer realism. Taking mass and size into account, no way is a halfling going to out arm wrestle a dwarf, much less a human.

One thing alluded to above and that I really like about DCC is the fact that stats are not as fixed as in other games, they're more in flux, can be burned, gained, etc. I like that. I plan on allowing characters to raise stats based on stuff they do, "quests" for example: want to raise your strength? Do daily manual labor for a whole month. Want to get smarter? Go spend a month in a library. Or something along those lines.

Anyway, as to the original question about 30 Luck halflings, if you have such a thing in your game I'd argue you're breaking it on purpose and have only yourself to blame, heh.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:56 am

I believe the general assumption, created by two years of play testing, was that characters will be burning luck on a fairly regular basis (and not just thieves and halflings, neither). Luck rewards are there to keep characters in the game, and raise them back up to their original total, not get them to a Luck attribute of 30, 40 or more...

But I'm also slightly confused by the Deed die -- which seems to be rolled only once per turn, but I get the impression that basically everybody is rolling it once per action.

Sidebar: Who's to say that Halflings don't have size and mass 'penalties', but fey 'bonuses' on their side in that arm-warsslin'? I've never met one in person, but they don't seem 'zactly human to me... 8)
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:03 am

GnomeBoy wrote:I believe the general assumption, created by two years of play testing, was that characters will be burning luck on a fairly regular basis (and not just thieves and halflings, neither). Luck rewards are there to keep characters in the game, and raise them back up to their original total, not get them to a Luck attribute of 30, 40 or more...
Sure, I think that's right, except thieves and halflings DON'T burn luck, or at least they do but it comes back...so maybe the real question is what happens when they gain luck points?
But I'm also slightly confused by the Deed die -- which seems to be rolled only once per turn, but I get the impression that basically everybody is rolling it once per action.
Exactly!
Sidebar: Who's to say that Halflings don't have size and mass 'penalties', but fey 'bonuses' on their side in that arm-warsslin'? I've never met one in person, but they don't seem 'zactly human to me... 8)
Also, remember, for example, chimpanzees are smaller than humans, but you don't want to be wrestling with one, ISTR they are both relatively and absolutely stronger than humans despite being half the size.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:07 am

beermotor wrote:Anyway, as to the original question about 30 Luck halflings, if you have such a thing in your game I'd argue you're breaking it on purpose and have only yourself to blame, heh.
So what happens when Thieves/Halflings gain Luck? That's what I'm interested to know. Either they quickly go up to a maximum (might be 18, or might not, and given that a player who initially rolls high Luck is perhaps more likely to choose Thief/Halfling it won't take them long to get to that limit), OR there's no limit and they continue to accumulate Luck because they have no way to permanently decrease it like other classes.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:50 am

Okay, maybe I'm wrong about the Luck gain only getting you back to your original number. Maybe.

But the ability chart only goes to 18. Cap scores at 18, and you're good. Thieves and Halflings'll have plenty to burn, without getting ridiculous.

Edit: The more I think back about it, the more I think I'm remembering this discussed during the Beta days, and I think that's how Luck rewards for adventuring work. You can get up to 18 (if you burn less than you gain), and the purpose was essentially to keep (non-Theif and non-Halfling) characters from using all their luck before they reached 2nd Level, never to return. If someone has a clearer recollection or can find the thread, I'd be happy for that...
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by beermotor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:52 am

d(sqrt(-1)) wrote:
beermotor wrote:Anyway, as to the original question about 30 Luck halflings, if you have such a thing in your game I'd argue you're breaking it on purpose and have only yourself to blame, heh.
So what happens when Thieves/Halflings gain Luck? That's what I'm interested to know. Either they quickly go up to a maximum (might be 18, or might not, and given that a player who initially rolls high Luck is perhaps more likely to choose Thief/Halfling it won't take them long to get to that limit), OR there's no limit and they continue to accumulate Luck because they have no way to permanently decrease it like other classes.
Plenty of ways to permanently decrease a stat. "Yeah, that action was not even remotely close to your alignment, so you're penalized 2 luck, permanently." Or, "You broke the Holy Horseshoe, lose 5 luck, permanently." Judge's discretion.

Also, this is largely academic, you're assuming someone with such high luck will survive long enough for it to be a problem. My guess is, the more the person's luck is a helpful issue, the more likely that person will get targeted in the future by some nasty monster who can tell that it's the halfling or the thief that's running the show.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by smathis » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:44 am

Hmm. Put me in the camp of people "doing it wrong". While a Luck spend is technically "permanent", I've always kept them limited by the initial ability score. So a Halfling with a Luck score of, say, 14 at character creation would never improve the Luck score beyond 14.

It's me taking a bit of license with the notion of Luck spends being a "permanent" spend. But I've never encountered a Thief or Halfling with 20 Luck in one of my games.

:shock:

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by bitflipr » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:52 am

I've also assumed that initial rolled luck is the maximum luck attainable (other than receiving an enchantment that increases the maximum).

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by beermotor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:19 am

smathis wrote:Hmm. Put me in the camp of people "doing it wrong". While a Luck spend is technically "permanent", I've always kept them limited by the initial ability score. So a Halfling with a Luck score of, say, 14 at character creation would never improve the Luck score beyond 14.

It's me taking a bit of license with the notion of Luck spends being a "permanent" spend. But I've never encountered a Thief or Halfling with 20 Luck in one of my games.

:shock:
I think this is fine, actually, although I'd say you can permanently increase your luck stat through appropriate play (quest, proper alignment actions, whatever). But it's not something that would happen automatically assuming the thief just sits in one place for several days.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:58 am

bitflipr wrote:I've also assumed that initial rolled luck is the maximum luck attainable (other than receiving an enchantment that increases the maximum).
I'm quite happy to believe that's the answer, although it does mean that Thieves get no benefit from +Luck awards at the end of a scenario.

I was sure there must be a clarification somewhere that I've missed but maybe it's not really mentioned in the rules.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Raven_Crowking » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:00 am

Don't forget that Luck can also decrease through in-game events, and not just PCs burning Luck on purpose.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Raven_Crowking » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:02 am

d(sqrt(-1)) wrote:
bitflipr wrote:I've also assumed that initial rolled luck is the maximum luck attainable (other than receiving an enchantment that increases the maximum).
I'm quite happy to believe that's the answer, although it does mean that Thieves get no benefit from +Luck awards at the end of a scenario.
You could just assume that the Thief and Halfling only regenerate Luck up to their original score, but can temporarily have higher scores. Overage, once spent, is lost.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by TheNobleDrake » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:11 am

Everything looks to have been pretty well covered in this thread... so I'll just drop a handy reminder/clarification:

It's not 1 Luck/night resting - It's the Thief or Halfling's level in restored Luck/night resting.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Galadrin » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:48 pm

Because I will be going for a more "Knights of the Dinner Table" feel, I am swapping out Luck for Honour (a la HackMaster). Essentially the stat works identically, but there are constant and common opportunities to increase and decrease Honour. I.E. a monster humiliates a player, the PC loses Honour. If the player then challenges the monster to a duel, he might gain Honour (if he wins against the odds).

After reading this discussion, I will probably also cap each players Honour at their initial roll, with Honour gains restoring the player up to that amount (and no higher).

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by smathis » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Galadrin wrote:Because I will be going for a more "Knights of the Dinner Table" feel, I am swapping out Luck for Honour (a la HackMaster). Essentially the stat works identically, but there are constant and common opportunities to increase and decrease Honour. I.E. a monster humiliates a player, the PC loses Honour. If the player then challenges the monster to a duel, he might gain Honour (if he wins against the odds).

After reading this discussion, I will probably also cap each players Honour at their initial roll, with Honour gains restoring the player up to that amount (and no higher).
That's a nice tweak to the rule, Galadrin. Very cool.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Devil Swine » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:18 pm

I waited till my neighbor got home to ask him his take on Realism because he is a actual halfling and I figured he would know. However before I could get a chance to ask him he tried to cast a spell and really messed it up and basically exploded.Also now I have the head of a Goat.

I feel so BA-AA-AAA-AD that I can't get you a realistic answer to the physical strength issue of halflings HOWEVER I can indeed tell you there is something VERY funny about them as the splatter to area ratio for my neighbor was over a dozen times the normal and realistic area for someone that size and shape and poundage.

Tomorrow I for sure can give you some realistic stat mods for having your head turn into a goat head.

Till then Bye BA-AA-AA-AAY-Bye

:lol:

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:03 pm

removed due to double post.
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:03 pm

Raven_Crowking wrote: You could just assume that the Thief and Halfling only regenerate Luck up to their original score, but can temporarily have higher scores. Overage, once spent, is lost.
Yes, I think that's a good solution.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by ScrivenerB » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:23 pm

Personally, I don't see a particular problem with allowing their luck to increase to 18. Consider that while casters are gaining spells that can blow up god-knows-what at high levels and fighters are gaining their MDA, damage bonuses, and huge HP/crit dice, luck is the main thing thieves (and especially halflings ) get to stay competitive. Yeah, yeah, thief abilities. Sure, nice, but 35 years of seeing thieves in action in D&D pretty much tells me how limited those things are. Let these schmoes have their 18 luck if they earn it imo. Thieves have traditionally been a wimpy class unless you have a city-based campaign; the sort of episodic dungeon-centric actions that DCC seems inclined toward are hardly their native environment. Let them do something for a change.

This is all especially true for halflings. A human 0-level who lives can choose to be a thief and the player can take a lousy luck score into account before deciding on the class. Halflings get no choice in their 'class' so their luck score is entirely random. One with a low luck score will be extremely disadvantaged if he's forever capped there.

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