Spell duel - Recognize spell to counter

[mindshadow2k]

I may have missed this somewhere in the book or discussed on the boards.

In the example spell duel a wizard casts magic missile and the defending wizard just goes to counter it.

This leads me to the question of should the countering wizard have to make a roll to determine what spell is being cast prior to countering (granted if they were just using dispell magic it wouldn't matter what spell is being cast it works against all spells).

I ask because under spell manifestations it states "When one spellcaster faces another, he does not necessarily know what spells are being thrown at him; all he can observe is the visual effect.". So this being said would you make the countering wizard roll an d20+int skill check to know the spell being cast so you know how to counter?

[finarvyn]

I'll confess that I haven't done much with spell duels, but what you suggest seems logical.

One of the classic examples of a spell duel that comes to my mind offhand is the confrontation between Merlin and the old witch in the old Disney cartoon THE SWORD IN THE STONE, where each transfrorms to react to the way the other transforms. Seems like the secret to this kind of duel is to see and react quickly, and a roll like you suggest certainly would help a DM determine if this is done quickly or not.

Question: Would this rule mean that an otherwise balanced duel might end very quickly due to one botched roll?

[meinvt]

My sense is that spell duels are rare enough as is. I think that if a spell is being cast that you have a counter to you would recognize it immediately and automatically. After all, it is invoking the very powers which you have written upon your mind.

Even from a purely rules balance point of view, adding an additional check to the spell duel procedure would really change the balance of it and I think be a bad thing.

[mindshadow2k]

I have yet to run the game but was just kind of re-reading this last night and saw tha that the text somewhat contradicted itself with the example of the spell duel and the text describing the manifestations for each spell.

I love the system and its expression of how each wizards spell is unique and harnessed in different ways for each and every wizard. This to me says that it would be somewhat difficult to recognize what is being cast. I love the idea of describing the spell and the flavor that the text provides and this driving some mystery in the players minds.

And while I think that the mystery involved with each unique spell. I would want the duel to be fun and quick and so I would probably when a duel began wave the having to roll and just let the wizards focus solely on countering one another. I may consider doing a spell check on the initial spell starting the duel but am still on the fence (finarvyn I think that botching this if it was only on the first spell to initiate the duel it would be fine and help flavor the the fact that you fail to even initialize the duel to counter).

Just curious how others are going to handle this situation.

[TheNobleDrake]

My group of players and I have decided that all it takes is to see someone's spell once to know what the spell is and be able to counter it in the future, but you can always try to counter with guess work or a generally usable countering spell like magic shield (i think that was one).

For us it came down to not wanting to make the flavor of manifestation (that everyone casting a spell has it look different) mechanically irrelevant.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

My sense is that spell duels are rare enough as is. I think that if a spell is being cast that you have a counter to you would recognize it immediately and automatically. After all, it is invoking the very powers which you have written upon your mind.

Even from a purely rules balance point of view, adding an additional check to the spell duel procedure would really change the balance of it and I think be a bad thing.

I disagree with the first part. The book focuses very heavily on how limited knowledge is in a medieval world. It even goes so far as to say that it might be the basis of quests just to learn of a spells existence. Add to this that the same spell can seem completely different depending on who's casting it and what patron is giving it and it becomes extremely unlikely that a Wizard would just know what spell it is when its cast.
However, I do agree that forcing another roll into the most elaborate system in the game might bog down combat more than necessary. I'd think about just running it narratively. roleplay the enemy casting the spell and it starting to take effect and have the player guess based on the clues.