More "crunchy" weapon rules?

[TheNobleDrake]

My group has expressed a near-universal opinion that some weapon choices in DCC are a bit disappointing. Specifically, one player said "I went with a two-handed sword because I thought 'hey, that'll be awesome!' but now I am thinking of just sticking with the longsword and shield I found... two more possible points of damage doesn't seem worth the loss of initiative and AC."

For the time being I have a simple patch rule in place - that two-handed melee weapons have 'reach' which allows attacking from behind an ally into a melee, and negates the +1 AC bonus gained by mounted combatants.

What I am aiming for, however, is a more robust (without being overly complicated) set of weapon stats... and I was wondering, does anyone out there already have some rules they are using?

If anyone has any ideas on the matter, I'd be glad to hear them. Here are some things I have been thinking:

I want each type of weapon (sword, axe, flail, etc.) to have a characteristic that makes it more desirable for a specific purpose, like flails being better for trips, and was considering giving a +1 to attack rolls (not damage) while using the weapon types "favored deed."

I have also thought of altering the damage die of some weapons - such as axes having a higher minimum damage while sacrificing upper-end damage potential (example: battleaxe 2d4, two-handed sword d10 still).

[bholmes4]

This part of the game is something I will tinker with later but the 2-handed weapon issue jumped out at me right away. I don't really want to bump their damage any higher so I have ruled the following:

1. Polearms/Spears: Roll d30 for initiative on the first round of combat.
2. Great Weapons: Roll d24 for initiative on the first round of combat.

My thinking is that giving 2-handed weapons an initiative penalty (I assume because they are slow) is actually the wrong way to look at it. What you want to simulate is their long reach and ability to strike first, thus you give them a better initiative die. Afterall opponents don't exactly want to engage with guys with 2-handers because they know they will probably get in a strike before you can reach them. With the current initiative penalty the reverse actually happens, if I have a dagger I can easily close in knowing I should win initiative. What they should be doing is trying to surprise the guy with the 2-hander to guarantee they win initiative, not just charging in.

(Note: In subsequent rounds I switch to group initiative but you could easily switch their initiative rolls back to d20 for all subsequent rounds or even d16 if you are worried about weapon speed.)

Possible tweaks:
I am also considering granting 2-handed weapons a +1 bonus to hit to simulate their long reach and ability to puncture armour (just as strength bonuses adds to your "to hit"). This is a nice counter to the shield + weapon combo. As such player's can choose the +1 AC option of a shield or +1 to hit of a two-hander. The only reason I am hesitant is that DCC is already pushing my tolerance for modifiers (a bit too high) and I don't want to add to the problem by granting even more!

Of course I have other ideas for that so this will likely become another house rule.

[finarvyn]

How about this:
How does C&C do it?
How does AD&D do it?
How does Pathfinder do it?

Basically, my thinking is that DCC RPG is essentially compatible with most RPGs cut from the D&D-style cloth and I would pick my favorite system from one of the other RPGs and simply import it.

[TheNobleDrake]

I like the ideas mentioned thus far - at the very least they give me things to ponder, so thanks for responding fellas.

How does C&C handle weapons?

I know that Pathfinder includes very robust lists of weapons with a variety of properties to set them apart from each other... but it also has a few weapons here and there that are inherently mechanically superior to other options - so I would have to, in order to be satisfied, alter the way many weapons and most properties work.

AD&D could prove an interesting resource though... depending on which optional rules I attempt to emulate/re-purpose.

[meinvt]

For a warrior I'd be willing to bump Mighty Deed actions up "a notch" if they match the weapon type used. Two handed sword to sunder, battle axe to cleave, war-hammer to knock back. "A notch" probably means +1 on the Dead die result. For other characters I think it is less important if their particular weapon choice is "cool".

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Maybe its just that I haven't seen the rules in play yet, but from reading them, I don't see the problem. Warriors already have an initiative bonus to counteract the 2 handed weapon penalty, plus deeds to give even more possible oomph.
If you're not a Warrior, you should be slower than everyone else. Have you seen someone swing a Claymore? Its pretty slow compared to a longsword. By the same token, a Warrior with a Claymore, should still be better than most other people, but equally slow in comparison to an equally good Warrior with a longsword.
A dwarf wouldn't want to use a 2 handed weapon.
So, I'm not sure where the problem is, it makes sense to me. Especially since the 2 handed initiative penalty is only a theoretical penalty. It only limits how high you cn roll, instead of penalizing whatever you actually did roll.

[TheNobleDrake]

For a warrior I'd be willing to bump Mighty Deed actions up "a notch" if they match the weapon type used. Two handed sword to sunder, battle axe to cleave, war-hammer to knock back. "A notch" probably means +1 on the Dead die result. For other characters I think it is less important if their particular weapon choice is "cool".

Where I am currently leaning to separate the weapon types (axe, sword, etc.) without upping somethings damage potential is to use a simple +1 to hit when doing a Deed that matches the weapon's "desire" - just something to make it more likely that the Deed is successful but doesn't actually increase the "power" of the Deed itself, which I want to keep tied to level and actual deed die result.

[IronWolf]

I don't really think we need more crunchy weapon rules. It looks like Mighty Deeds are the answer here. Let the player come up with something that is cool for their weapon that they have learned from using their weapon of choice for a period of time. Sundering, tripping, disarming, knockbacks, etc are all easily handled under the Mighty Deeds rule.

If anything this lets a player choose a weapon and put their own flair to it without needing to add cumbersome weapon rules. Use the Mighty Deeds option for warriors to help enable the player to make their weapon or their expertise with that weapon interesting.

[TheNobleDrake]

Yes, IronWolf, I agree with you fully.

...but what about how the difference between a longsword and a two-handed sword, mechanically speaking, being 2 points of potential damage gained at the cost of -1d of initiative and -1 AC?

That is, to my players, too harsh a cost and has made the player that original thought "I'll use a two-handed sword because that is cool" change to longsword+shield because there is no reason not to.

I intend to make things just crunchy enough that every weapon on the list has a reason to be used, so that the player picks a weapon based on flavor (barring situations where a player is forced to pick a weapon based on availability)

[Troy812]

MOre crunchy rules? ...sigh......
Perhaps you missed the point of THIS game.


K.I.S.S.

T

[meinvt]

...but what about how the difference between a longsword and a two-handed sword, mechanically speaking, being 2 points of potential damage gained at the cost of -1d of initiative and -1 AC?

That is, to my players, too harsh a cost and has made the player that original thought "I'll use a two-handed sword because that is cool" change to longsword+shield because there is no reason not to.

Hence my suggestion that maybe it could give a +1 mighty deed die result for certain types of actions as well. Although you are _also_ already doing a different additional change to the general weapon rules? It seems like you have a lot of moving parts here.

[TheNobleDrake]

MOre crunchy rules? ...sigh......
Perhaps you missed the point of THIS game.


K.I.S.S.

T

Not to sound rude intentionally, but... perhaps you missed the point of this thread?

I want simple.

I want a player to be able to look at weapons as simply as "which one would be cool?"

The current rules have shown my players that they can't do that - I've got a guy that thought a two-handed sword would "be cool" and has since switched to longsword and shield because it's just plain better; I've got a player intentionally avoiding any bows when he has the option because a crossbow is just plain better; I've got a player proficient with axes but not swords using a longsword because he finds a to-hit penalty easier to deal with than an initiative penalty tied to an AC penalty (battleaxe) or being stuck with less damage (handaxe).

You may actually have noticed, if you did read the entire thread, I already even mentioned that I was looking for suggestions as to how to make the change my group desires in a simple way - and shot down the idea of adapting another game's overly complex weapon rules.

So please, do try to post productively and not in ways that seem intent to belittle my interest in adjusting DCC rules to fit my particular group.

TL;DR - keep your sighs to yourself, thanks.

[Raven_Crowking]

MOre crunchy rules? ...sigh......
Perhaps you missed the point of THIS game.


K.I.S.S.

T

Play nice now!

My reading of the rules is does not make the point K.I.S.S. -- patrons, mercurial magic, spell tables, fumbles, critical tables, new monsters all the time, new magic, etc.

The point of this game seems to be "Use complexity where you'll get the most bang for your buck" with the caveat, stated rather plainly in the book, that different judges and groups will modify the rules because they want a different bang. Not only is that okay, it is explicitly okay.

RC

[TheNobleDrake]

Although you are _also_ already doing a different additional change to the general weapon rules? It seems like you have a lot of moving parts here.

I haven't actually committed to any house-rule in particular yet.

I do think that the +1 for certain Deeds based on weapon type is great to give an "equal but different" feel to weapons that are currently mechanically identical in almost every aspect - such as giving someone a reason to use a two-handed sword instead of a battleaxe when the battleaxe is cheaper, other than just "I feel like using a sword." I just haven't log that rule in the books and started using it yet... separating battleaxe, two-handed sword, and polearm by more than pure flavor is only a minor concern to me.

My major concern is that my players are looking at certain weapons on the weapon list (specifically all two-handed melee weapons, and bows in every case other than classes that aren't also proficient with crossbow) and saying "I don't see a reason to ever use that because other options are actually better."

I want something that makes choosing longsword + shield or two-handed sword feel like a choice to my players, where as right now they see the two-handed sword as not being comparable in the slightest.

My current thoughts on the matter are actually very unconfident - I can see the issue the players are having with feeling "punished" should they choose a two-handed weapon over a one-hander and shield, I desire them to be able to use any weapon in the game without that feeling... and yet I have no idea how to do that without simultaneously over-complicating things.

I almost want to just accept that they are never going to wield certain weapons on the list without being forced into it by in-play circumstance, and just move on... never seeing anything but sword & board for the rest of my Judge life.

[Troy812]

Oppps..Ok my bad.....

[Nerdwerfer]

Just a quick thought (nice way of saying not thought through). A warrior with a two handed weapon could have his threat range increased by one.

If that's too much, then perhaps moving the critical die up the chain by one when rolling for effect would literally make a hit more crunchy.

[finarvyn]

One way that OD&D handled this, for better or worse, is to give all weapons the same damage dice. (1d6 was what OD&D used.) While it messes with realism somewhat, it does bring weapons to the level of "pick what you like" instead of "pick which gives an extra bonus."

For two-handed weapons the biggest effect is that you can't use a shield, which effectively costs you an AC point.

[Colin]

I've often been tempted to go with something like three tiers:

Light melee weapon (e.g. dagger) 1d4
Medium melee weapon (e.g. mace, warhammer, longsword) 1d8
Heavy melee weapon (e.g. 2-H battleaxe, maul, halberd, greatsword) 1d12

Simple, and the 4-point potential variation makes the trade off for not using a shield a bit more palatable than the small step up from say, a longsword doing 1d8 and a greatsword doing 1d10.

Another option I considered was allowing great 2-handed weapons to apply double the wielder's Strength modifier to damage as the wielder could bring more might to bear with them. So, a warrior with a +2 Strength mod would do 1d8+2 with a longsword, but 1d10+4 with a greatsword.

Colin

[Ravenheart87]

I like penetrating damage dice like HackMaster. Makes low damage weapons a bit more interesting and unpredictable.

[finarvyn]

I've often been tempted to go with something like three tiers:

Light melee weapon (e.g. dagger) 1d4
Medium melee weapon (e.g. mace, warhammer, longsword) 1d8
Heavy melee weapon (e.g. 2-H battleaxe, maul, halberd, greatsword) 1d12

Simple, and the 4-point potential variation makes the trade off for not using a shield a bit more palatable than the small step up from say, a longsword doing 1d8 and a greatsword doing 1d10.

I've done something like this. Worked out pretty well.

Another option would be class-based damage, regardless of weapon.
* Fighters and dwarves do d8.
* Elves and clerics do d6
* Magic-users, halflings, thieves do d4.

Or you could do something like this to make use of funky dice:
* Fighters do d8
* Dwarves do d7
* Elves, Clerics do d6
* Halflings, Thieves do d5
* Magic-users do d4

[TheNobleDrake]

Thanks for the help everybody, some really cools suggestions in here.

My players and I are currently leaning towards a variation of what Colin mentioned, but with a couple differences.

All one-handed weapons that deal a d8 damage, other than spear, need a little flavor related "bonus" that is roughly equivalent in power/utility to the spear's special ability of double damage on a charge.

Two-handed weapons will stay at d10 damage, but will either receive the double strength modifier benefit (battleaxe, two-handed sword) or grant a +1 AC bonus (all polearms). I am also considering dropping the initiative penalty associated with two-handed weapons - I think relative speed of the weapons should be represented well enough by the wielder's agility, and find it a bit "off" that an archer with an arrow knocked is not able to react just as quickly as a man with a knife in hand ready to throw... and especially strange that a loaded crossbow isn't the quickest weapon where initiative is concerned.

If I keep weapon modifications to initiative, I will likely give almost every weapon a modifier to initiative branching out from the baseline of spear/sword and based entirely upon likelihood of getting the "first strike" when having weapon ready upon encountering the event triggering initiative (meaning that the fastest weapons would be missile weapons, followed by larger weapons, and so on)

[TheNobleDrake]

I like penetrating damage dice like HackMaster. Makes low damage weapons a bit more interesting and unpredictable.

Random anecdote, as I am full to bursting with such, concerning HackMaster damage:

Played quite a few campaigns using HackMaster Basic, and in the course of play it was very clear that the damage rules were good to go for making sure that everyone could contribute a hefty beating to their opponents if they landed an attack.

We had everyone who could, except one guy intentionally testing out whether a two-handed sword could actually keep up or not, using a battleaxe - and those that couldn't manage a battleaxe using a staff.

Watching the "damage race" between weapons dealing 2d4, 4d4, and 2d12 stay so neck-and-neck that I was in disbelief and the players started calling a typical staff a "dynamite stick" was pretty great.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

Thanks for the help everybody, some really cools suggestions in here.

My players and I are currently leaning towards a variation of what Colin mentioned, but with a couple differences.

All one-handed weapons that deal a d8 damage, other than spear, need a little flavor related "bonus" that is roughly equivalent in power/utility to the spear's special ability of double damage on a charge.

Two-handed weapons will stay at d10 damage, but will either receive the double strength modifier benefit (battleaxe, two-handed sword) or grant a +1 AC bonus (all polearms). I am also considering dropping the initiative penalty associated with two-handed weapons - I think relative speed of the weapons should be represented well enough by the wielder's agility, and find it a bit "off" that an archer with an arrow knocked is not able to react just as quickly as a man with a knife in hand ready to throw... and especially strange that a loaded crossbow isn't the quickest weapon where initiative is concerned.

If I keep weapon modifications to initiative, I will likely give almost every weapon a modifier to initiative branching out from the baseline of spear/sword and based entirely upon likelihood of getting the "first strike" when having weapon ready upon encountering the event triggering initiative (meaning that the fastest weapons would be missile weapons, followed by larger weapons, and so on)

I would (and always have) ruled that having an arrow knocked before combat starts gives you an attack right when initiative is rolled(or a surprise round if people on both sides have attacks readied).
As far as everyone choosing crossbows over bows, thats easy to fix by adding in realism. even a light crossbow (one that you can reload by hand without need of a foot brace and/or wench) takes nearly twice as long to reload as a recurve bow. So either drop the initiative penalty for standard bows, add in a rule that it takes a full action to reload a crossbow (ala 3rd edition D&D), or give standard bows a starting 2 attacks per round (ala 2nd edition D&D).
Each of those options has its own ingame effect. But, the last two will mostly be relegating crossbows to the, "my fighter keeps on onhand just to get a free shot off before closing into melee range" area (or thats what it seemed like they were marginalized to in 2/3 D&D). But the first option is a little less realistic. As, after the first shot, the archer is having to knock an arrow, line up a shot and fire with every action (pretty slow compared to swinging a scimitar).

[Nerdwerfer]

Last thought, playing around with damage groupings, but based on a characters strength?

STR ................Weapons Usable

3-5...................1d4 (daggers, cane, spiked gauntlet)
6-9...................1d6 (short sword, hand ax, light mace, 1h-spear, 2h-staff.)
10-15...............1d8 (long sword, battle ax, warhammer, 2h-handed spear, hobbit corpse)
16-18...............1d10 (two-handed sword, great axe,)

Characters could use a 1h weapon from one STR class higher, but would suffer a lower die on initiative unless the weapon is used with both hands.
Characters could us a 2h weapon from one STR class higher, but do so at a reduced initiative die.
Characters who meet the STR requirement for 2h weapons may use them with no penalty.

Weapons 2 STR classes above characters ability are consider useless do to feebleness.

If this interferes with beer drinking and fun, discard.

I do sympathize with the disappointment toward the underwhelmed two-handed weapons. Hate to see those Ax welding psychopaths I've painted collect dust.

Happy Crawling.

"You're never to old to learn, but you may be to old to remember what you just learned....what?"

[Troy812]

If ya wanna make a rule for 2h weapons.... Why not just +1d for the critical chart when using s 2 handed weapon...
Quick easy... and to the point.

T