Goodman Games

Hi all,

In chapter 4 (combat), you can learn that the rolls for initiative is based on the result of the surprise roll. Below, you can read that characters who were not aware of the opponents are surprised. Okay... but how does it apply (in terms of rules) ? Surprised characters miss a round ? Or take penalty ? Or act at the end of the round ?

I was waiting to see if there would be an "Official Answer", but as you have not received one yet, I will tell you what I do.

In most cases, I just allow the creatures that are surprising the other creatures to have a round of free actions. Obviously, a Thief is able to backstab a surprised creature. It should also be noted that, in some cases, surprise means that you are able to avoid an encounter altogether. I play that by ear, based on the situation.

Depending upon context, you may also wish a successful Deed to have greater-than-normal efficacy.

I feel surprise should carry through the entire battle, and the defenders should never really be able to recover from the shock. In my OD&D games (using d6 group initiative rolled only once at the beginning of combat), surprise would allow the attacker to forgo the opposed initiative roll and they would automatically take initiative (which lasts for the entire battle). It was a simple way to encourage surprised parties to flee the combat (as they knew they would never regain momentum, and the fight would always be an uphill battle until they retreated and reformed themselves).

With DCC, I am planning on using a player-facing initiative (monsters do not roll initiative, but rather have fixed DC's for players to roll against), so I will probably give surprising monsters a +6 to their DC (for the rest of the battle). Similarly, surprising players would get a +6 to their initiative rolls. The chaos of player-facing initiative already lends itself to the randomness of combat, and this is an easy enough way to simulate momentum from shock and surprise.

I like that, Galadrin. If you surprise a foe, you'll always be at the top of the initiative (unless your fumble knocks you to the bottom, anyway).

Thanks for your replies, even if I was waiting an "Official Anwser" too. Unconsciously, I would grant a round of free action like Raven_crowking (and D20 style) but sure it must be some funny things to do with surprise.

I don't think there is an "Official Answer" per se; it feels like one of those elements Joseph knew everyone had a different take on and so left open to group interpretation.

As for my take:

I simply rule that the surprising side automatically goes first, and that for the initial round only the surprised side does not enjoy the AC benefits of high Agility or shields. They recover by the end of the round and can act after the ambushers have all taken their turn, but they're on the backfoot then, and that initiative order does not change.

Colin

It says "the judge rolls for surprise"
Does it actually say anywhere what this roll is?

ShaggyCan wrote:It says "the judge rolls for surprise"
Does it actually say anywhere what this roll is?

Page 77 talks about determining surprise, but doesn't specifically state any roll - just that anyone not aware of their opponent is surprised, and that being aware of an opponent means seeing them, making a check to hear them approach, or otherwise noticing them.

That gives a judge all of the bits they need to make a rule of their own to determine surprise - such as using Luck as a listen skill, or ruling that creatures with enhanced senses are impossible to surprise because they smelled you, felt your life essence, heard your heart beat, read your mind or whatever else they might possibly do.

3 in 10? No, it doesn't seem to say much. Maybe a Luck check to notice the signs of an ambush?

D20 with Int+Luck bonuses vs DC 10 (or more if its a setup ambush)? On one hand I agree you can can come up with a custom rule, but on the other it is a RULE book.

My take has been, it's situational. Not a flat rate at all. Could be a "perception" check, could be something else. It depends on the circumstance. I sort of like the flexible approach myself.

RU

I forgot to even mention when I posted earlier, but I tend to only allow for surprise in situations where a die roll would be inappropriate - such as when a Thief has been hiding in the shadows and strikes out at a target, or when the party is distracted looting so the corpses in the room can get the jump on them once they animate.

If it comes down to a situation where it could go either way (surprise or no surprise) I just roll initiative and call it good enough - maybe you get the first strike in, maybe you don't.

Roderick Usher wrote:My take has been, it's situational. Not a flat rate at all. Could be a "perception" check, could be something else. It depends on the circumstance. I sort of like the flexible approach myself.

RU

Excellent, I like this too and will use it in my games.

In my games we determine surprise based on the circumstance. If it comes down to a roll a d10 and a 1-3 is a surprise, adjusted by on the fly modifiers. Usually though surprise is easy enough to determine without a roll.

Also we use d6 group initiative. Rolled each round. I have all the PC's initiative mods on a card and assign them based on what the party initiative came up. During surprise rounds whomever is surprised doesn't get to act and the surprises get a bonus to further initiative checks. I find even with per-round checks for initiative having a group initiative and pre-determined action sequence speeds up play significantly.

What about a base "stealth" die based on armor? It would start at d20 for unarmored and could be lowered by up to 3 steps for armor worn (since armor fumble die are listed as d8, d12, and d16). This would be opposed by an awareness roll.
If this is too crunchy then the initial d20 roll could simply be modified by the worst check penalty of any armor worn and then opposed by awareness.