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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Maxwell Luther wrote:
ctaylor wrote:
I like the sound of this!

Any inspirational movies? There was a fair amount of sci-fi on tv and film in the 70s.


As Rick said, my list is above.

Yeah, ha, thanks. I scrolled right past that list obviously. It all looks good.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:46 am 
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Maxwell Luther wrote:
aesdana wrote:
Thanks for your explanation of what psionics will look like ! Il like it and it has interesting consequences. :wink:

May I ask you about your sandbox exploration rules ? :mrgreen:


I'll be posting an explanation of those up in the Design Diary on my blog in the near future. Those of you who have read Barbarians of the Aftermath and the back third of Doctor Who: Aliens and Creatures, however, will have a good idea of the direction I'll be going in.

Speaking of, there is a new post in my Design Diary breaking down the essence of Seventies Science Fiction Gaming. You can find it here...

http://jabberwocky-media.com/?p=159

Ok, thanks.

I will read your posts feverishly !


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:25 am 
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Excellent first post.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:43 am 
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Raven_Crowking wrote:
Excellent first post.

I will second that!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:56 pm 
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"And this is the main problem with KS, these days. KS is NOT a pre-order service, which a lot of people are treating it as."

--------------------------------

Its not? I don't understand that. What am I giving you the money for then? I pledge to get a reward (for example a copy of the book) and pay you in advance for it. If it doesn't fund, I get my money back.
Im not giving you the money for nothing, or so you can realize a dream. Im backing your KS to get the product.

Ive gotten ripped off by KS (like Cairn & Mike Nystul), so Im interested in what exactly you mean by your statement above. If for some reason you cant get a product out, you shouldn't get to keep thousands of dollars & produce nothing.

Im am certainly NOT saying that you intend anything other than being honest. So no insult is meant. But you have to understand people are cautious with the failed KS lately.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Blood Axe wrote:
"And this is the main problem with KS, these days. KS is NOT a pre-order service, which a lot of people are treating it as."

--------------------------------

Its not? I don't understand that. What am I giving you the money for then? I pledge to get a reward (for example a copy of the book) and pay you in advance for it. If it doesn't fund, I get my money back.
Im not giving you the money for nothing, or so you can realize a dream. Im backing your KS to get the product.

Ive gotten ripped off by KS (like Cairn & Mike Nystul), so Im interested in what exactly you mean by your statement above. If for some reason you cant get a product out, you shouldn't get to keep thousands of dollars & produce nothing.

Im am certainly NOT saying that you intend anything other than being honest. So no insult is meant. But you have to understand people are cautious with the failed KS lately.


I could vomit everything I've learned over the last 6 months about crowdfunding into this post, but I'd rather just post an informative video from somebody who pretty much sums up the high points, so I can get on with making stuff. Be sure to watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GhlLVSuX4g

Just to emphasize why I even bothered bringing this up in my own thread, Marshall Kt:

1. Has spent a good number of his posts in this forum bagging on DCC and other folks. I wanted to nip any potential negativity in the bud before it started poisoning my thread (and the perception of my product in the process).

2. Goes on about making sure I'm not a scam artist, but it is clear from his post (as I pointed out in my reply) that he hasn't, in fact, done any research on me before he starts talking about my failed Kickstarters, plural (I've only attempted one KS so far), and my lack of ability to deliver on projects that weren't even funded.

3. His post goes on to say 'I only back those who I know fulfill the pledges' which pretty much defeats the purpose of Kickstarter when you consider that this leaves out anyone who hasn't done a KS project before unless they already have a well-known company. Again 'You can't have the job until you get experience but you won't get experience until you've done the job.'

As for me, my Barbarians of Heavy Metal project was well explained and half completed before we even started the Kickstarter (you can read my reams of design notes at strangestones.com) and my current Void Hunters project is being designed out in the open in the same way, allowing everyone to not only see exactly what they can expect from the content but to influence it, as well.

Post #3 in my Void Hunters diary is up today by the way, for anyone who is following along, in which I discuss rules changes to the core DCC game...

http://jabberwocky-media.com/?p=185


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:18 pm 
Maxwell Luther wrote:
Blood Axe wrote:
"And this is the main problem with KS, these days. KS is NOT a pre-order service, which a lot of people are treating it as."

--------------------------------

Its not? I don't understand that. What am I giving you the money for then? I pledge to get a reward (for example a copy of the book) and pay you in advance for it. If it doesn't fund, I get my money back.
Im not giving you the money for nothing, or so you can realize a dream. Im backing your KS to get the product.

Ive gotten ripped off by KS (like Cairn & Mike Nystul), so Im interested in what exactly you mean by your statement above. If for some reason you cant get a product out, you shouldn't get to keep thousands of dollars & produce nothing.

Im am certainly NOT saying that you intend anything other than being honest. So no insult is meant. But you have to understand people are cautious with the failed KS lately.


I could vomit everything I've learned over the last 6 months about crowdfunding into this post, but I'd rather just post an informative video from somebody who pretty much sums up the high points, so I can get on with making stuff. Be sure to watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GhlLVSuX4g

Just to emphasize why I even bothered bringing this up in my own thread, Marshall Kt:

1. Has spent a good number of his posts in this forum bagging on DCC and other folks. I wanted to nip any potential negativity in the bud before it started poisoning my thread (and the perception of my product in the process).

2. Goes on about making sure I'm not a scam artist, but it is clear from his post (as I pointed out in my reply) that he hasn't, in fact, done any research on me before he starts talking about my failed Kickstarters, plural (I've only attempted one KS so far), and my lack of ability to deliver on projects that weren't even funded.

3. His post goes on to say 'I only back those who I know fulfill the pledges' which pretty much defeats the purpose of Kickstarter when you consider that this leaves out anyone who hasn't done a KS project before unless they already have a well-known company. Again 'You can't have the job until you get experience but you won't get experience until you've done the job.'

As for me, my Barbarians of Heavy Metal project was well explained and half completed before we even started the Kickstarter (you can read my reams of design notes at strangestones.com) and my current Void Hunters project is being designed out in the open in the same way, allowing everyone to not only see exactly what they can expect from the content but to influence it, as well.

Post #3 in my Void Hunters diary is up today by the way, for anyone who is following along, in which I discuss rules changes to the core DCC game...

http://jabberwocky-media.com/?p=185



Wow, I ask 1 question and the OP attacks me; quoting someone elses post, who quoted me. Blood Axe.

Rest assured, I won't back your KS or even buy your product, if/when it's released. I won't comment about it or you, again; for good or ill.

There is a thread in this forum about a funded KS and a year later the product isn't delivered. Yet, you berate me for being cautious.
I work hard for my money and only have a little bit of descretionary income. I play multiple games. My money must be split between them. If something doesn't look like it will be a game played in my area, even if it's played everywhere else in the world, I'm not spending money on it. Games that aren't even released, or worse might not ever be released; won't be receiving my money either.

My posts started out asking questions. I got no official answers. Instead, I got attacked by posters saying; "I should play another simpler game, with all the rules spelled out, since it appears I can't handle DCC". Hell of a bunch of elitest posters. I'm over 50 years old and been playing games and RPG's longer than most of you have been alive. I've played or tested over 100 RPGs. Some great, some crap. Some luckily never saw the light of day. I'm used to forums where there are moderators from the game, to answer questions and police the forum for trolls. I stated in my posts what drew me to DCC and then then problems there of. [BTW there still hasn't been an official answer to my questiosn. No one from the company can or will answer them?]

I went to your website and the 1st thing I see is an apology about a KS.
I don't know you, so I ask in a public forum about you.
You got defensive and now attack me for it.

A great way to get new customers. I might be the one posting it, but I'm not the only one reading it, and I wonder how many others you just drove off.

Good day to you.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:40 pm 
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marshal kt wrote:
Wow, I ask 1 question and the OP attacks me; quoting someone elses post, who quoted me. Blood Axe.

Rest assured, I won't back your KS or even buy your product, if/when it's released. I won't comment about it or you, again; for good or ill.

There is a thread in this forum about a funded KS and a year later the product isn't delivered. Yet, you berate me for being cautious.


I didn't berate or attack you, I politely corrected you after you crapped in my thread AND saved you the trouble of having to look me up by providing my gaming CV. Blood Axe asked me a question in a professional manner and I answered by explaining why I even had to bring it up in my announcement thread in the first place. That reason was you and your thinly veiled attempt to turn this into another 'Kickstarter Scam' thread.

Quote:
I work hard for my money and only have a little bit of descretionary income. I play multiple games. My money must be split between them. If something doesn't look like it will be a game played in my area, even if it's played everywhere else in the world, I'm not spending money on it. Games that aren't even released, or worse might not ever be released; won't be receiving my money either.


Then you really shouldn't be investing in Kickstarters. The number one rule of gambling is never bet money you can't afford to lose. You invest because you want to see someone succeed at creating something neat and are willing to risk a few bucks to see what they pull off.

Quote:
My posts started out asking questions. I got no official answers. Instead, I got attacked by posters saying; "I should play another simpler game, with all the rules spelled out, since it appears I can't handle DCC". Hell of a bunch of elitest posters. I'm over 50 years old and been playing games and RPG's longer than most of you have been alive. I've played or tested over 100 RPGs. Some great, some crap. Some luckily never saw the light of day. I'm used to forums where there are moderators from the game, to answer questions and police the forum for trolls. I stated in my posts what drew me to DCC and then then problems there of. [BTW there still hasn't been an official answer to my questiosn. No one from the company can or will answer them?]


No you started a 'this sucks' sub-thread inside that thread. Everything you said sounded like an attack on the game designer and that is probably why you found it less than helpful. And I'm not even conceding that it was less than helpful. Those so called 'elitist' people bent over backwards in that thread to help you but it always came back to 'Goodman sucks because he didn't include rule X, Y and Z.' It was very irritating, but the folks on this board are classy enough to help anyway. And really, it doesn't matter how many games you've played or play-tested (or how old you are), it doesn't give you the right to be churlish.

Quote:
I went to your website and the 1st thing I see is an apology about a KS.
I don't know you, so I ask in a public forum about you.
You got defensive and now attack me for it.


Which shows you didn't actually read anything, because no where at any time have I apologized for the non-funding of my ONE Kickstarter, on either my website or my Kickstarter page. In fact, I've been very bullish about using the experience as a graduate study and a learning experience for my next Kickstarter. If you would have done more than a cursory examination you would have even seen that I am going to try again in the Spring with a new KS improved by comments from my customers.

And again, you didn't ask me anything. You specifically (as in cut and paste from your post) said:

Going to the website I see some failures.

Failures? Plural? What failures? Why are you making it sound like I've failed at multiple things? My KS failed to fund, sure, but you have no idea why, so how can you use it to call my trustworthiness into question? Strike one.

Has anyone backed a KS before from this copany and received the product? How fast do they fullfill the promised items on a successful KS?

I can't fulfill anything if the Kickstarter doesn't fund. So the only answer to a question like this is crickets as no one can possibly answer yes (after which you would tell people not to support me because no one would answer in the affirmative, one presumes). Strike two.

I only back those who I know fullfill the pledges.

Not only missing the point of Kickstarters, but insulting my credibility because you didn't bother to read the end of my first post in this thread. To whit:

As for me, I'm the author and designer of Barbarians of the Aftermath and was a designer on the Doctor Who RPG line (writing, game design, graphic design and layout) so I've got a far bit of experience in this area and should have a manuscript ready for folks to peruse by January.

Quote:
A great way to get new customers. I might be the one posting it, but I'm not the only one reading it, and I wonder how many others you just drove off.

Good day to you.


Do what you think you gotta do. I bend over backwards for my customers, which you would know if you actually read the Kickstarter comments for my 'failed' Kickstarter, but I draw the line at someone trolling my announcement threads to ask accusatory questions, the answers for which are abundantly available in the very thread you're questioning or outside it with an even the most elementary bit of Google Fu. You don't even need Google Fu. Google slap-fighting would do the trick.

And do notice that I answered your question as politely as I could many posts back but you did not answer back with any sort of affirmation, which further leads me to believe you have a bone to pick with some other creator for taking your money and not delivering to your satisfaction, and just want to complain at large to anyone who'll listen as well as take your frustrations out on other creators. This isn't the 'Kickstarter Screwed Me' thread, it's the 'Hey! Cool New Product for fans of DCC!' thread. You sir, thread-crapped in that thread and now you're taking your ball and going home because I called you on it. No, worse than that. You're trying to take my ball home with you because I called you on it.

Good day to you.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Hi Maxwell,

First off, that guy is just bitter. Don't take it personally, you create, he's a critic. I know what I'd rather be.

I'm looking forward to this. I'm been working on adding Sci-fi to my DCC RPG for a while. I've collected a ton of OSR Sci-Fi RPGs, and have been reading them all. But there is always the conversion issue (which isn't hard, but it's there.) You working on this book is going to make life easier for everyone! Well, me at least.

I'm looking forward to your firearms rules (I've developed my own, and will be releasing them soon) and your psionics. I'm stoked you seem to be keeping it modular and compatible. That's key for me to be interested. I play DCC RPG 99% rules-as-written, any house rules are plugged-in and don't break or change any core-rules. Void Hunters seems to follow those lines, and as long as they do, it'll hold my attention.

I will say this though, pulp-action is what DCC RPG is all about to me. And Star Wars epitomizes it, it's the ultimate Science-Fantasy. So don't get too gritty with it. There's nothing wrong with a little tongue-in-cheek.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:47 pm 
Really, this is being nice?
Really this is polite?
This is you attacking me in Blood Axe's post.


"Just to emphasize why I even bothered bringing this up in my own thread, Marshall Kt:

1. Has spent a good number of his posts in this forum bagging on DCC and other folks. I wanted to nip any potential negativity in the bud before it started poisoning my thread (and the perception of my product in the process).

2. Goes on about making sure I'm not a scam artist, but it is clear from his post (as I pointed out in my reply) that he hasn't, in fact, done any research on me before he starts talking about my failed Kickstarters, plural (I've only attempted one KS so far), and my lack of ability to deliver on projects that weren't even funded.

3. His post goes on to say 'I only back those who I know fulfill the pledges' which pretty much defeats the purpose of Kickstarter when you consider that this leaves out anyone who hasn't done a KS project before unless they already have a well-known company. Again 'You can't have the job until you get experience but you won't get experience until you've done the job.'"



Here's his post.
"Blood Axe wrote:

"And this is the main problem with KS, these days. KS is NOT a pre-order service, which a lot of people are treating it as."

--------------------------------

Its not? I don't understand that. What am I giving you the money for then? I pledge to get a reward (for example a copy of the book) and pay you in advance for it. If it doesn't fund, I get my money back.
Im not giving you the money for nothing, or so you can realize a dream. Im backing your KS to get the product.

Ive gotten ripped off by KS (like Cairn & Mike Nystul), so Im interested in what exactly you mean by your statement above. If for some reason you cant get a product out, you shouldn't get to keep thousands of dollars & produce nothing.

Im am certainly NOT saying that you intend anything other than being honest. So no insult is meant. But you have to understand people are cautious with the failed KS lately."


Blood Axe said he understood why I was asking and you attack me. Me. Not him.

Yes I scanned your website and saw you had a failed KS. I asked if anyone else has dealt with you. You then attacked me, because I didn't bother to read your entire website. You could post whatever you wanted on the site. I asked for others opinions. I asked if others had good or bad business with you.
None answered, but you. Banks don't loan money to people or companies that fail. I'm not about to.

I was going to buy the product if it as released. I even stated that. I'd rather wait for a and pay full price, from an unknown, that gamble on it.

That's why I asked on the forum if anyone has dealt with you before.


I asked if anyone has bought any products from you or your company. So, you're telling me you've never released anything on your own; KS or otherwise.

I didn't insult your credibility. You just stated, if I don't want to "gamble' my money, your words, not mine; then not to back any KS. That's saying that supporting you was a gamble.

If you don't want anyone asking questions about you, your company or your ability to fulfill your promises, don't ask people for money.

I didn't answer back, because you sounded like you we being defensive, so rather than questioning more, and getting attacked; I let it go.
Instead you attack me anyway, when someone else, Blood Axe, joins in and explains why he can see my reason for questioning you.

Your beliefs about me are wrong. I explained that I backed 1 person, before there were KS, with a subscription. He fell behind then never finished the project. He also fully refunded my money and anyone else that was unhappy with not receiving a complete product. He actually offered everyone a refund. He came forward and said, due to circumstances beyond his control, the project was dropped. Anyone who wanted a refund to send him an email and he would.

That's follow through and supporting your customers. He has since released several other products and has a loyal following.

You sir, and I use the term loosely, since you can accuse me of anything you want and say you're being polite; while I ask a couple questions to others who are posting IN THIS SAME THREAD, if they know you and will vouch for you; attack me.

There's another thread asking about people who backed a KS for a product, advertised here. They're complaining that a year later they haven't received anything. So, I ask, if you're ok to trust. I figured that others here, who might have dealt with you in the past, would know.

Maxwell Luther wrote:
marshal kt wrote:
Wow, I ask 1 question and the OP attacks me; quoting someone elses post, who quoted me. Blood Axe.

Rest assured, I won't back your KS or even buy your product, if/when it's released. I won't comment about it or you, again; for good or ill.

There is a thread in this forum about a funded KS and a year later the product isn't delivered. Yet, you berate me for being cautious.


I didn't berate or attack you, I politely corrected you after you crapped in my thread AND saved you the trouble of having to look me up by providing my gaming CV. Blood Axe asked me a question in a professional manner and I answered by explaining why I even had to bring it up in my announcement thread in the first place. That reason was you and your thinly veiled attempt to turn this into another 'Kickstarter Scam' thread.

Quote:
I work hard for my money and only have a little bit of descretionary income. I play multiple games. My money must be split between them. If something doesn't look like it will be a game played in my area, even if it's played everywhere else in the world, I'm not spending money on it. Games that aren't even released, or worse might not ever be released; won't be receiving my money either.


Then you really shouldn't be investing in Kickstarters. The number one rule of gambling is never bet money you can't afford to lose. You invest because you want to see someone succeed at creating something neat and are willing to risk a few bucks to see what they pull off.

Quote:
My posts started out asking questions. I got no official answers. Instead, I got attacked by posters saying; "I should play another simpler game, with all the rules spelled out, since it appears I can't handle DCC". Hell of a bunch of elitest posters. I'm over 50 years old and been playing games and RPG's longer than most of you have been alive. I've played or tested over 100 RPGs. Some great, some crap. Some luckily never saw the light of day. I'm used to forums where there are moderators from the game, to answer questions and police the forum for trolls. I stated in my posts what drew me to DCC and then then problems there of. [BTW there still hasn't been an official answer to my questiosn. No one from the company can or will answer them?]


No you started a 'this sucks' sub-thread inside that thread. Everything you said sounded like an attack on the game designer and that is probably why you found it less than helpful. And I'm not even conceding that it was less than helpful. Those so called 'elitist' people bent over backwards in that thread to help you but it always came back to 'Goodman sucks because he didn't include rule X, Y and Z.' It was very irritating, but the folks on this board are classy enough to help anyway. And really, it doesn't matter how many games you've played or play-tested (or how old you are), it doesn't give you the right to be churlish.

Quote:
I went to your website and the 1st thing I see is an apology about a KS.
I don't know you, so I ask in a public forum about you.
You got defensive and now attack me for it.


Which shows you didn't actually read anything, because no where at any time have I apologized for the non-funding of my ONE Kickstarter, on either my website or my Kickstarter page. In fact, I've been very bullish about using the experience as a graduate study and a learning experience for my next Kickstarter. If you would have done more than a cursory examination you would have even seen that I am going to try again in the Spring with a new KS improved by comments from my customers.

And again, you didn't ask me anything. You specifically (as in cut and paste from your post) said:

Going to the website I see some failures.

Failures? Plural? What failures? Why are you making it sound like I've failed at multiple things? My KS failed to fund, sure, but you have no idea why, so how can you use it to call my trustworthiness into question? Strike one.

Has anyone backed a KS before from this copany and received the product? How fast do they fullfill the promised items on a successful KS?

I can't fulfill anything if the Kickstarter doesn't fund. So the only answer to a question like this is crickets as no one can possibly answer yes (after which you would tell people not to support me because no one would answer in the affirmative, one presumes). Strike two.

I only back those who I know fullfill the pledges.

Not only missing the point of Kickstarters, but insulting my credibility because you didn't bother to read the end of my first post in this thread. To whit:

As for me, I'm the author and designer of Barbarians of the Aftermath and was a designer on the Doctor Who RPG line (writing, game design, graphic design and layout) so I've got a far bit of experience in this area and should have a manuscript ready for folks to peruse by January.

Quote:
A great way to get new customers. I might be the one posting it, but I'm not the only one reading it, and I wonder how many others you just drove off.

Good day to you.


Do what you think you gotta do. I bend over backwards for my customers, which you would know if you actually read the Kickstarter comments for my 'failed' Kickstarter, but I draw the line at someone trolling my announcement threads to ask accusatory questions, the answers for which are abundantly available in the very thread you're questioning or outside it with an even the most elementary bit of Google Fu. You don't even need Google Fu. Google slap-fighting would do the trick.

And do notice that I answered your question as politely as I could many posts back but you did not answer back with any sort of affirmation, which further leads me to believe you have a bone to pick with some other creator for taking your money and not delivering to your satisfaction, and just want to complain at large to anyone who'll listen as well as take your frustrations out on other creators. This isn't the 'Kickstarter Screwed Me' thread, it's the 'Hey! Cool New Product for fans of DCC!' thread. You sir, thread-crapped in that thread and now you're taking your ball and going home because I called you on it. No, worse than that. You're trying to take my ball home with you because I called you on it.

Good day to you.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:53 pm 
Wow, another flaming post. Great forum guys.
I'm not allowed to ask about the reputation for someone asking money? "He posts here, so he must be a great guy." [sarcasm for those who miss it.]

Sorry, I don't just hand out money to people I don't know without asking questions from others.

I WAS looking forward to it. WAS. Not anymore. That's why I asked who the guy was to give my money. If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't have asked about the KS. I wouldn't have asked about his credibility.



reverenddak wrote:
Hi Maxwell,

First off, that guy is just bitter. Don't take it personally, you create, he's a critic. I know what I'd rather be.

I'm looking forward to this. I'm been working on adding Sci-fi to my DCC RPG for a while. I've collected a ton of OSR Sci-Fi RPGs, and have been reading them all. But there is always the conversion issue (which isn't hard, but it's there.) You working on this book is going to make life easier for everyone! Well, me at least.

I'm looking forward to your firearms rules (I've developed my own, and will be releasing them soon) and your psionics. I'm stoked you seem to be keeping it modular and compatible. That's key for me to be interested. I play DCC RPG 99% rules-as-written, any house rules are plugged-in and don't break or change any core-rules. Void Hunters seems to follow those lines, and as long as they do, it'll hold my attention.

I will say this though, pulp-action is what DCC RPG is all about to me. And Star Wars epitomizes it, it's the ultimate Science-Fantasy. So don't get too gritty with it. There's nothing wrong with a little tongue-in-cheek.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:13 pm 
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reverenddak wrote:
Hi Maxwell,

First off, that guy is just bitter. Don't take it personally, you create, he's a critic. I know what I'd rather be.

I'm looking forward to this. I'm been working on adding Sci-fi to my DCC RPG for a while. I've collected a ton of OSR Sci-Fi RPGs, and have been reading them all. But there is always the conversion issue (which isn't hard, but it's there.) You working on this book is going to make life easier for everyone! Well, me at least.

I'm looking forward to your firearms rules (I've developed my own, and will be releasing them soon) and your psionics. I'm stoked you seem to be keeping it modular and compatible. That's key for me to be interested. I play DCC RPG 99% rules-as-written, any house rules are plugged-in and don't break or change any core-rules. Void Hunters seems to follow those lines, and as long as they do, it'll hold my attention.

I will say this though, pulp-action is what DCC RPG is all about to me. And Star Wars epitomizes it, it's the ultimate Science-Fantasy. So don't get too gritty with it. There's nothing wrong with a little tongue-in-cheek.


Cheers, Rev. By the way, speaking of creators, I bought your Crawl bundle a few weeks back and am really digging on it. My players immediately jumped on the new character classes for their replacement characters (after getting mauled in the Frozen In Time module). Best fanzine I've read in decades...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:05 am 
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@reverendak

I own all your fanzines and enjoy them. However I have to take issue with something you said. Your first comment is enlightening. You are a DCC publisher springing to the defence of another independent DCC creator while attacking a DCC fan with questions about a previous Kickstarter that didn't fund and concerns about the new one. There have been 3 late Kickstarters for DCC, so let's not pretend everything is hunky dory. Your own website also features a few mea-culpas about late fanzines. Instead of hitting out at criticisms from fans, the independent DCC publishers should spend their time fulfilling the orders for the fans who gave them money up front for their product. We have good reason to be wary. As a fan, I'm with those who ask questions and are critical. Money is involved in crowdfunding and Kickstarters/publishers should be vetted and held to account.
reverenddak wrote:
Hi Maxwell,

First off, that guy is just bitter. Don't take it personally, you create, he's a critic. I know what I'd rather be.


I'm looking forward to this. I'm been working on adding Sci-fi to my DCC RPG for a while. I've collected a ton of OSR Sci-Fi RPGs, and have been reading them all. But there is always the conversion issue (which isn't hard, but it's there.) You working on this book is going to make life easier for everyone! Well, me at least.

I'm looking forward to your firearms rules (I've developed my own, and will be releasing them soon) and your psionics. I'm stoked you seem to be keeping it modular and compatible. That's key for me to be interested. I play DCC RPG 99% rules-as-written, any house rules are plugged-in and don't break or change any core-rules. Void Hunters seems to follow those lines, and as long as they do, it'll hold my attention.

I will say this though, pulp-action is what DCC RPG is all about to me. And Star Wars epitomizes it, it's the ultimate Science-Fantasy. So don't get too gritty with it. There's nothing wrong with a little tongue-in-cheek.


Last edited by Crimsontree on Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:18 am 
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@ maxwell luther

I've read through your responses and was surprised at how strongly you reacted to the questions posed by marshal kt. Is this the type of customer service those who "gamble" on your Kickstarter can expect from you? If/when things start to go wrong and modules/add ons aren't delivered on time, are you going to go toe to toe with your backers and defend yourself as vigorously? Your module sounds interesting and like a lot of fun but I found your defensive reaction to the questions raised to be off putting.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:57 am 
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I humbly suggest that the moderators move the KS posts above to another thread (named "Void Hunters KS" e.g.) and that this discussion should go to that newly created thread.

KS questions are good but have nothing to do with the content (please, don't reply saying content will not be published without a successful KS : we all know this fact).

So, please, Maxwell Luther, answer there and not here and, if I dare, keep cool : customers only should be allowed to have inapropriate reactions not rpg professionals.

That said, I still want to back your project and see what you create.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:26 am 
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Don't forget to include licensing info, so that if, say, someone wanted to write a module with a laser gun, could they use the stats from VH? For many reasons, I would prefer that this be so.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:01 am 
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Everyone relax. I think a lot of fans think it is much easier to publish and put out content than it actually is. I don't kickstart ususally (I'm flat busted) but when I see something I like I sure buy it. Patience is the key here, many people are working for a primary source of income and doing this on the side. I look forward to this one for sure and I am still salivating for Tales and TA. It will happen.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:05 am 
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I have been fortunate enough to have seen previews of Tales and TA, and I believe that (1) both are definitely coming, and (2) both are definitely going to be worth the purchase price. The VH blog posts so far certainly make me interested in this product as well. Traveler for DCC, with a bit of Gamma World thrown in for good measure? That is something I could use.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:23 am 
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Good show on Spellburn brother.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:25 am 
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Thank you.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:46 am 
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Crimsontree wrote:
@ maxwell luther

I've read through your responses and was surprised at how strongly you reacted to the questions posed by marshal kt. Is this the type of customer service those who "gamble" on your Kickstarter can expect from you? If/when things start to go wrong and modules/add ons aren't delivered on time, are you going to go toe to toe with your backers and defend yourself as vigorously? Your module sounds interesting and like a lot of fun but I found your defensive reaction to the questions raised to be off putting.


With all due respect, it would only be a customer service issue if:

A. He actually asked ME a question. Not only did he ask it in a third party manner like I was invisible in this thread, but he impugned my integrity while he did it. And then defends himself by further impugning it while actually admitting he didn't read my website (which is all of 5 posts long at this point, as it is brand spanking new). His words:

You then attacked me, because I didn't bother to read your entire website. You could post whatever you wanted on the site.

B. He was actually here to ask about the product, which is the point of this thread, not to kvetch about Kickstarters and his failures with them.

C. If there was an actual Kickstarter to kvetch about. There isn't. There won't be until next year. I have to finish the manuscript first. As I stated in the post he didn't read.

As for reacting strongly, it seems a company has only two options when dealing with these situations, both of which end up the same way:

A. Bite your tongue and keep silent, at which point you get this complaint:

I stated in my posts what drew me to DCC and then then problems there of. [BTW there still hasn't been an official answer to my questiosn. No one from the company can or will answer them?]

Uh, maybe because there was no question, just accusations of crap game design.

B. Defend yourself. At which point you're accused of crap customer service.

The reason I vociferously choose B? Because Barbarians of the Aftermath lost a lot of customers in the beginning from me doing A while some other "$%^&*" [admin edit] went about slagging my book off on various forums, accusing me of stealing art without doing any more research than 'hey I recognize that picture. It must be art theft. I think I'll go make an accusation!'. I let other people come to the defense of my integrity by pointing out the obvious, trying to stay out of the fray. But eventually I had to jump in when the number of people just taking his word about my perfidy started to catch like internet fire. It took a LOT of work to clear that mess up. So, yeah, I get a little pissed when someone questions my honesty without actually reading the very sources he's using to cast doubt on my abilities!

aesdana wrote:
I humbly suggest that the moderators move the KS posts above to another thread (named "Void Hunters KS" e.g.) and that this discussion should go to that newly created thread.

KS questions are good but have nothing to do with the content (please, don't reply saying content will not be published without a successful KS : we all know this fact).


+1 Exactly my point. In fact, I'm going to do you one better, start a new thread myself and relabel this one if I can. Everyone who is actually interested in what will be in the product as opposed to complaining about Kickstarter can follow me there. But before I do, someone has an actual customer service comment that I don't want to get lost in the move...

Raven_Crowking wrote:
Don't forget to include licensing info, so that if, say, someone wanted to write a module with a laser gun, could they use the stats from VH? For many reasons, I would prefer that this be so.


That is something I know I'll eventually have to address, but I haven't really given it much thought. I imagine that it will work something along the lines of 'Go ahead and use it, but give me a credit in your book.'


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:29 pm 
Really? No posts asking questions?

Here, I'll do the work since you wont'; just like I admitted to not doing on your website.

Question: How do multiple characters combine to perform a skill check.
18 replies, 257 views.
Final answer; make it up yourself, since the rules don't explain it.
No official answer but a general opinion of posters.

viewtopic.php?f=72&t=44820

Question:How do clerics get their spells?
Further down in the same thread.

Someone else posted the question in another thread and I posted in it.
I can't find it at the moment.

Here's a three page thread about another publisher who hasn't fulfilled on their KS. Yet you got mad when I asked for your credintials.

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=44786

True, I never directly asked YOU for YOUR creditials. Anyone can post whatever they want for creditials on any webpage; al a` Wikipedia. I asked everyone else, what they thought of you. Have they ever bought or ordered from you or your company. I asked for testimonials for previous customers.

Every other person I've seen ask people to back their KS on a site other than their own, state their creditials and previous work.

In your original post, you state what you want to write, it's format and your inspiriation.
All well and good, and being a child of the 60's-70's, a subject matter that interests me. Books I've read, movies and TV shows I've watched, or own.

But nowhere did you state what you've written, who you worked for or with; and more importantly; what other work you've completed and why we should support you.

You listed your website. An elitest attitude of go look for yourself, I'm to important to state it.
First thing on your website, is an apology of a failed KS. Further on, as pointed out by another poster in this thread, is statements about delays in other material.

My thoughts then were, OK, good product, but possible problems with release. I'll buy it when it's released and pay more for the extras if they are released to the general public.

I ask for the publics opinion about you, and then get attacked.
I choose to ignore it and get attacked again when someone else asks the same question.

Now, when several others ask the same question and question you about why you attacked me, you go on attacking me more.

Let me state this yet again; I've never had a problem with any KS. So your comment on 'my negativity' about 'my history with other KS's' are blatantly false. I've stated this multiple times, yet you keep mis-stating it.
I had a problem with a subscription and got a full refund. I have purchased other products by this same author/creator. Still, no problem with him.

You got defensive to the point of aggresiveness, and because you said it, it's fine; because this is your thread.
Your attitude of, this is my thread, and no one can question me. "This is my ball and he wanted to take it" sound familiar?

No, I'm not got ask you if your honest. No one will ever say they aren't. I asked everyone else.
Do you go into a restaurant and ask them if their food is any good? No, you ask people your know, or even unbiased strangers for their opinion. Gee, that's exactly what I did here. Yet, you got mad and attacked me, becasue I didn't ask you if your food is any good.

So far all I'm hearing/reading is; the food is usually good, but the management is very aggresive when you comment on the customer service.

I like you how know what I was thinking when I asked about you. You have more than answered all of my questions about you, your product and your business.
IF I was being negative about you and your product, I would have stated: He's a thief. His first KS was a failure. He can't be trusted to complete one. If it somehow gets funded, he won't follow trough.

Namecalling, more great customer service. You called me an 'asshat' because of something someone else said in another post.
I've tried to refrain from namecalling, but I guess becaue this is YOUR THREAD, you can do whatever you want.

Not only are you ensuring I'll never buy a product from your company, but that I'll never buy anything you ever work on, for any company.

Others have already stated that they disagree with your posts/actions. I'll ask again: How many others have you driven away? The majority of people will read a post, but not comment on it; whether they agree or not.

YOUR negative attitude, YOUR agressive attacks on me are about to drive me away from DCC.
I bet GG will love to read that, if I send them a pm stating that because of the behavior of posters on THEIR FORUM and one specific third party publisher, I'm no longer buying their products.

There's alot of other games out there. I don't have to spend my money on a game that a third party licensed publisher treats potential customers like crap, berates them and calls then asshats.

Maxwell Luther wrote:
Crimsontree wrote:
@ maxwell luther

I've read through your responses and was surprised at how strongly you reacted to the questions posed by marshal kt. Is this the type of customer service those who "gamble" on your Kickstarter can expect from you? If/when things start to go wrong and modules/add ons aren't delivered on time, are you going to go toe to toe with your backers and defend yourself as vigorously? Your module sounds interesting and like a lot of fun but I found your defensive reaction to the questions raised to be off putting.


With all due respect, it would only be a customer service issue if:

A. He actually asked ME a question. Not only did he ask it in a third party manner like I was invisible in this thread, but he impugned my integrity while he did it. And then defends himself by further impugning it while actually admitting he didn't read my website (which is all of 5 posts long at this point, as it is brand spanking new). His words:

You then attacked me, because I didn't bother to read your entire website. You could post whatever you wanted on the site.

B. He was actually here to ask about the product, which is the point of this thread, not to kvetch about Kickstarters and his failures with them.

C. If there was an actual Kickstarter to kvetch about. There isn't. There won't be until next year. I have to finish the manuscript first. As I stated in the post he didn't read.

As for reacting strongly, it seems a company has only two options when dealing with these situations, both of which end up the same way:

A. Bite your tongue and keep silent, at which point you get this complaint:

I stated in my posts what drew me to DCC and then then problems there of. [BTW there still hasn't been an official answer to my questiosn. No one from the company can or will answer them?]

Uh, maybe because there was no question, just accusations of crap game design.

B. Defend yourself. At which point you're accused of crap customer service.

The reason I vociferously choose B? Because Barbarians of the Aftermath lost a lot of customers in the beginning from me doing A while some other "$%^&*" [admin edit] went about slagging my book off on various forums, accusing me of stealing art without doing any more research than 'hey I recognize that picture. It must be art theft. I think I'll go make an accusation!'. I let other people come to the defense of my integrity by pointing out the obvious, trying to stay out of the fray. But eventually I had to jump in when the number of people just taking his word about my perfidy started to catch like internet fire. It took a LOT of work to clear that mess up. So, yeah, I get a little pissed when someone questions my honesty without actually reading the very sources he's using to cast doubt on my abilities!

aesdana wrote:
I humbly suggest that the moderators move the KS posts above to another thread (named "Void Hunters KS" e.g.) and that this discussion should go to that newly created thread.

KS questions are good but have nothing to do with the content (please, don't reply saying content will not be published without a successful KS : we all know this fact).


+1 Exactly my point. In fact, I'm going to do you one better, start a new thread myself and relabel this one if I can. Everyone who is actually interested in what will be in the product as opposed to complaining about Kickstarter can follow me there. But before I do, someone has an actual customer service comment that I don't want to get lost in the move...

Raven_Crowking wrote:
Don't forget to include licensing info, so that if, say, someone wanted to write a module with a laser gun, could they use the stats from VH? For many reasons, I would prefer that this be so.


That is something I know I'll eventually have to address, but I haven't really given it much thought. I imagine that it will work something along the lines of 'Go ahead and use it, but give me a credit in your book.'


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:07 pm 
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It's been mentioned before, but I really feel like it's worth reiterating that Jabberwoky Media's "failed Kickstarter" didn't fail in the sense that they took people's money and then failed to deliver the products. It failed to fund. That's a totally different animal. No one was out any money on the deal. No products were delivered late. No one is angry at Jabberwocky Media for taking their money and running away laughing. People might be disappointed that the project didn't fund; but again, that's nowhere near the same thing. And since getting a project to fund isn't exactly in the hands of the "producer" - a project can fail to be funded for any number of reasons - I feel like this whole part of the discussion just isn't germane. I mean, it's not like we're talking about Nystul's Amazing String of Abject Failures here.

Full Disclosure: I'm a passing internet acquaintance of Maxwell Luther's. I have hosted the design diaries for BoHM on my blog for him since he first started dreaming up the idea. So I suppose I might not be the most impartial person in the thread. But I also have no vested interest in the success or failure of anything JM has undertaken (though I'd love to see these things in print on a personal, game-use level). Maxwell has always been incredibly nice, friendly, and respectful to me in our public and private online interactions, but I don't actually know him from Adam. So I'm not charging in here to defend a friend or fellow publisher or whatever. I'm just stating the facts as I am aware of them.

Maxwell's Barbarians of the Aftermath is a mighty fine book. I don't own or play any of the Dr Who stuff so I can't speak to those things. But one can guess that they're solid works, given that they were published by a "proper" game company (Cubicle 7). That these are tied to a major license property owned by a large and powerful organization (ye olde BBC) means that they must have been pretty heavily vetted before being published. So I take that as de facto proof of quality.

I'm personally rather shy of Kickstarters in general, so I'm not rushing into anything being produced by anyone. Even the larger and/or better-known companies within our hobby encounter problems with their Kickstarters (Steve Jackson Games, Flying Buffalo, et. al.). There is inherent risk in backing a Kickstarter, and we all have to remember that fact when we join in on one. It sucks that there have been so many spectacular failures and that the crowdfunding model has lost a lot of its luster in the past year or so. But the truth is that one really has to think long and hard before plunking cash down for a thing that, ultimately, comes with no guarantee (which is why Kickstarter isn't a preorder service even if it feels like one). For the most part, I avoid them and wait until the product sees the light of day before I drop any money. I like getting a thing at the time I hand my dollars over, personally.

All of that said, if there's something that I'm really interested in and that I find to have compelling add-ons and such - especially if I feel like it won't happen at all if the KS doesn't fund - I will assess the risk and make a decision that I am comfortable with. In the case at hand, I'm pretty sure I will throw in for Void Hunters. It looks to be something that I would like to have and that I don't see anyone else producing anytime soon w/o the KS. I personally feel like Maxwell has a strong enough background that this is a risk I am willing to take. But that really has to be an individual decision and if people decide not to back it based on accurate information, that's the way things go.

I'm here because I like DCC. I'll like it even more if Void Hunters is produced. I have friends I'm certain will be interested in DCC because of Void Hunters who aren't currently invested in the game. And that's a good thing for everyone as far as I'm concerned.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:28 am 
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OK guys...no more arguing.

To all the creators out there: critics are our customers. Don't argue with them. Listen to them. Goodman Games remains in business because I devote a lot of energy listening to critical customers. There are many of them, and their opinions are not always aligned in the same direction, so it is not always easy. But it is necessary if you want a broad customer base.

To all the critics out there: feel free to offer constructive comments. Keep it constructive. I would prefer if these boards remain focused on GG products rather than general Kickstarter concerns.

Now, let's get back to gaming!

Thanks,
Joseph

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:20 am 
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Maxwell Luther wrote:
Oh, and if VH is successful enough, I might be tempted to do BoHM as a setting for that rules set...
Wow, nice! As a child of the 70's and a scifi aficionado I was already intrigued. My daughter and I were disappointed the BoHM Kickstarter didn't fund; the possibility of considering a BoHM setting for VH is very tantalizing. I look forward to the opportunity to back this project.


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