Nope, nobody likes it.goodmangames wrote: So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...
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Nope, nobody likes it.goodmangames wrote: So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...
Code: Select all
Table X-X: Thief Skills by Level and Alignment
Skill Bonus by Thief Level and Alignment
Path of Thug Path of Assassin Path of Swindler
Lawful (all) and Chaotic Evil Neutral (all) and
Chaotic Neutral Chaotic Good
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5
Backstab +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +0 +1 +3 +5 +7
Sneak silently* +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9
Hide in shadows* +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8
Pick pocket* +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +0 +1 +3 +5 +7 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9
Climb sheer surfaces* +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9
Pick lock* +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8
Find trap +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8
Disable trap* +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +0 +1 +3 +5 +7 +1 +3 +5 +7 +8
Forge document* +0 +0 +1 +3 +5 +0 +0 +1 +3 +5 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9
Disguise self +0 +1 +3 +5 +7 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +0 +0 +1 +3 +5
Read languages +0 +0 +1 +3 +5 +0 +0 +1 +3 +5 +0 +1 +3 +5 +7
Handle poison +0 +1 +3 +5 +7 +3 +5 +7 +8 +9 +0 +0 +1 +3 +5
Cast spell from scroll d10 d10 d12 d12 d14 d10 d10 d12 d12 d14 d12 d12 d14 d14 d16
* The thief’s Agility modifier, if any, also modifies checks for these skills.
Modifiers, huh? What are the DCs?goodmangames wrote:For those who want to try the "d20 version" of the thief, here is the set of abilities that I was using for most of 2010, before I changed them to percentile skills.
Up to the judge and how he sees the situation. Just like skills.reverenddak wrote:Modifiers, huh? What are the DCs?
Exactly. This is something I like that was streamlined in 4th edition (and True20, Star Wars Saga, and a few other d20 variants, if I'm remembering correctly).jmucchiello wrote:Converting Move Silently and Hide in Shadows to a single Stealth roll does two things. It eliminates the stupidity that you can't move silently through shadows. It also means you only need to roll dice once: Is the thief PERCEIVED or not? That's what you want to know. Not how well the thief blended with the marble columns or avoid this or that squeaky board. You want the whole answer. Was he not seen and not heard?
reverenddak wrote:Modifiers, huh? What are the DCs?goodmangames wrote:For those who want to try the "d20 version" of the thief, here is the set of abilities that I was using for most of 2010, before I changed them to percentile skills.
beta rules wrote:Some tasks are harder than others and DC allows us to gauge this.
DC 5 tasks are child’s play. Typically, these minor challenges aren’t rolled unless there is a consequence for
failure. Example: walking on a four-foot-wide castle wall requires no check, but walking a four-foot-wide bridge across a yawning chasm does, as there is a significant consequence to failure for this easy task.
DC 10 tasks are a man’s deed. The weak and unskilled could not achieve these tasks. Example: kicking down a door, scaling a stone wall, or hearing the approach of a cautious footpad.
DC 15 tasks are feats of derring do. It takes someone special to accomplish these tasks. Examples: leaping the gap between two city roofs, hurling a log at an oncoming bear, or grabbing a pouch lashed to the saddle of a galloping stallion.
DC 20 tasks are hero’s work. Only the most super-human characters attempt and succeed at these tasks
One thing that you might of missed in the first walk though of the thief is the following:jasmith wrote:My last post didn't show up, so let's try this again.
I like the %. Not married to the idea, though.
My problem with a d20/DC thing, is the whole "moving the goal-post" thing.
"No, I'm sorry, you're not really a high-level thief! This lock is DC 50! So there!"
High level, badass Fighters should be able to hit powerful monsters, often! High level, badass Wizards should expect a similar level of efficacy. And a high level badass Thief, should be able to ghost his way through all that crap!
So long as that's avoided, I wouldn't have an issue. Otherwise, there's no point in giving the larcenous little buggers, any xp at all.
Good catch, Machpants. It's amazing what you can find when you read the rulebook.Machpants wrote:reverenddak wrote:Modifiers, huh? What are the DCs?goodmangames wrote:For those who want to try the "d20 version" of the thief, here is the set of abilities that I was using for most of 2010, before I changed them to percentile skills.beta rules wrote:Some tasks are harder than others and DC allows us to gauge this.
DC 5 tasks are child’s play. Typically, these minor challenges aren’t rolled unless there is a consequence for failure. Example: walking on a four-foot-wide castle wall requires no check, but walking a four-foot-wide bridge across a yawning chasm does, as there is a significant consequence to failure for this easy task.
DC 10 tasks are a man’s deed. The weak and unskilled could not achieve these tasks. Example: kicking down a door, scaling a stone wall, or hearing the approach of a cautious footpad.
DC 15 tasks are feats of derring do. It takes someone special to accomplish these tasks. Examples: leaping the gap between two city roofs, hurling a log at an oncoming bear, or grabbing a pouch lashed to the saddle of a galloping stallion.
DC 20 tasks are hero’s work. Only the most super-human characters attempt and succeed at these tasks
In actual play, though, this makes no difference. All that matters is whether the thief was detected. To make them roll twice is basically penalizing them, making them WORSE at their signature ability.Sizzaxe wrote:Move silent and hide in shadows are different abilities. Please keep them separate. Stealth is too general. Otherwise we miss the opportunity to have a thief who is hidden, but makes a noise. Or vice versa, one who is silent but seen.
It makes a ton of difference in actual play. At least it always has in mine. A thief who wants to sneak past the guards must be both quiet and invisible. And in fact they are _not_ both as easy as the other. And in the case of the rules presentation hide in shadows is easier to do than move silently.buzz wrote:In actual play, though, this makes no difference. All that matters is whether the thief was detected. To make them roll twice is basically penalizing them, making them WORSE at their signature ability.Sizzaxe wrote:Move silent and hide in shadows are different abilities. Please keep them separate. Stealth is too general. Otherwise we miss the opportunity to have a thief who is hidden, but makes a noise. Or vice versa, one who is silent but seen.
+d30. This solves my issue completely. Put examples of being stealthy in the ability check section and drop chapter 2 completely.reverenddak wrote:I'm strongly opposed to a formal skill system, and I think maybe its reference should be dropped entirely. I'm OK with how the "skills" system is vague and considered only for convenience as they are currently, but I think it should be referred to as an Ability Test...
The SKILLS chapter should be re-titled ABILITIES, since there aren't any formal skills to begin with. Alluding to skills just adds to the confusion, while references to abilities, their scores and modifiers are what I've always referred to since BECMI D&D.
Thieves should be the only ones that do anything that is remotely similar to the d20 skill check emphasizing their class abilities.
This.reverenddak wrote:I'm strongly opposed to a formal skill system, and I think maybe its reference should be dropped entirely. I'm OK with how the "skills" system is vague and considered only for convenience as they are currently, but I think it should be referred to as an Ability Test...
The SKILLS chapter should be re-titled ABILITIES, since there aren't any formal skills to begin with. Alluding to skills just adds to the confusion, while references to abilities, their scores and modifiers are what I've always referred to since BECMI D&D.
Thieves should be the only ones that do anything that is remotely similar to the d20 skill check emphasizing their class abilities.
I don't think it's an unfair advantage to treat his abilities the same as all the other classes'. The thief is supposed to be better than everyone else at being sneaky; why suddenly get all granular and nit-picky when they strut their stuff? I think there's a good reason most RPGs don't make this distinction.Sizzaxe wrote:It makes a ton of difference in actual play. At least it always has in mine. A thief who wants to sneak past the guards must be both quiet and invisible. And in fact they are _not_ both as easy as the other. And in the case of the rules presentation hide in shadows is easier to do than move silently.
You could say that I'm penalizing him, but I could just as easily claim you are giving him an unfair advantage.
I really like the idea of "Misdeeds of Cunning" or whatever you want to call it that was floated above.Ze Groupe wrote:This.
Make the Thief class unique in another way, not via inflated ability checks alone.
They shouldn't be just really good they should be significantly better. Anyone can "hide". Anything can be hidden for that matter. I'm hiding behind a keyboard right now! I didn't spend months or days studying camouflage, the nuances of shadow, movement and sound like a ninja would have. Significant difference that can be quantified as Skill vs my natural or circumstantial Ability. A Thief would spend days upon days practicing lock picking, the same amount of hours that a Wizard would spend studying ancient text, collecting and organizing material components and memorizing the profane language of ire-some gods to cast a spell, and the time that a Warrior would spend honing his sword, practicing his footwork and taking steroids and "working out". The only way I like quantifying these differences in game terms (without getting into playable vs realistic, fun vs simulation, etc.) is totally and arbitrarily letting only those experts do certain things, not just do them better. Certain things being the keyword. Using hiding as an example again, a wizard on his tip-toes is one thing, but a Thief having special shoes, laced a certain way, knowing which fabrics to wear, and rolling the edge of his feet slowly, brushing any objects out the way before committing his body weight to the balls of his feet, and breathing matching the breeze as he's practiced over and over is something only a Thief can do.buzz wrote:Granted, I don't mind thieves simply being really good at ability checks, but, yeah, do something special with them.
Need is a subjective term!Unless you want to go *really* Old School and argue that the thief class doesn't even need to exist...
And that is why he should get a bonus to do it. The bonus is his training and experience on top of his Agility (natural ability). The DC (Difficulty Class) is what determines how difficult the local conditions are for moving silently.reverenddak wrote:Using hiding as an example again, a wizard on his tip-toes is one thing, but a Thief having special shoes, laced a certain way, knowing which fabrics to wear, and rolling the edge of his feet slowly, brushing any objects out the way before committing his body weight to the balls of his feet, and breathing matching the breeze as he's practiced over and over is something only a Thief can do.