Warriors and MDoA's

[Hamakto]

I am gong to start a second thread here to bring up another topic. Should MDoA's be only specific to the Warrior class?

Right now MDoA's work as a combat mechanic in the following way for a Warrior:

1. A warrior gets a bonus die instead of a BAB.
2. When rolling an attack roll, they roll a d20+(bonus die)+STR+magic
3. If they hit, damage is (weapon damage)+(bonus die)+STR+magic --- please note that you use the same bonus die as your rolled in #2 above
4. If they rolled a 3 or higher on the bonus die, they get to do some cool feat

Should this MDoA be applied to other classes? Yes, they die would increase far slower. But a warrior cleric would love to try to pull off a MDoA. A Thief does fight also.

What do people think?

[jmucchiello]

Where is MDoA defined? I can't figure it out.

[nanstreet]

I think MDoA's for combat should only apply to the Warrior class. It's their shtick.

I could see a similar mechanic being used by Wizards for their spellcasting, Clerics for calling upon their gods, and Thieves for using stealth and burglery. DCC already has different mechanics for at least the Wizards and Clerics, though, but maybe the Thief could be given something similar to the Warrior mechanic for their thieving skills.

I could see the extra die being used for BAB with all classes, though, but without the MDoA's. With that it would be possible to have fumbles and crits tie more to fighting prowress than luck: Double 1's could be a fumble, for example, so that the larger the prowress die gets the lower the chance of a fumble; perhaps it would be necessary to roll above your foe's hit dice on the prowress die to confirm a critical on a 20 on the luck die. There is lots of potential in the Warrior's mechanic for the game, in my opinion.

[geordie racer]

Where is MDoA defined? I can't figure it out.

Here it is

[Black Dougal]

My vote is to limit MDoA's to the Warrior-type classes. The ability to do an MDoA should require training and specialization with that weapon. Just like the Thief gets certain skills, MDoA should be a Warrior skill.

Just like anyone can climb a wall but a Thief is much better at wall climbing, anyone can wield a battleaxe but only a Warrior can use it to do a MDoA.

[Machpants]

Yep warriors only, that is not to say the player can try to do these sort of advanced things, but not on an auto roll of the dice and with a hard DC. Theif want to disarm, well that is going to be hard work unless he comes up with a very clever way to achieve it.

[jmucchiello]

So does MDoA refer to the stunt or to the die? I'd have called the die: BAD. In 3e, you have a Base Attack Bonus, so the die would be your Base Attack Die.

I'm not understanding the stunt system. If a 1st level fighter rolls a d3, what does he need to pull off a stunt? A 3 I suppose? That's 33%. So a 2nd level fighter who has a d4 bonus die pulls off a stunt on a 4? For only 25% or a 3 and 4 for 50%. The third level fighter rolls a d5 and has what chance to pull off a stunt? 20%? 40%? 60%?

I certainly hope the d20 is what is used for the stunt die.

[Hamakto]

So does MDoA refer to the stunt or to the die? I'd have called the die: BAD. In 3e, you have a Base Attack Bonus, so the die would be your Base Attack Die.

I'm not understanding the stunt system. If a 1st level fighter rolls a d3, what does he need to pull off a stunt? A 3 I suppose? That's 33%. So a 2nd level fighter who has a d4 bonus die pulls off a stunt on a 4? For only 25% or a 3 and 4 for 50%. The third level fighter rolls a d5 and has what chance to pull off a stunt? 20%? 40%? 60%?

I certainly hope the d20 is what is used for the stunt die.

The target # is 3 or higher.

So it get progressively easier for a Warrior to achieve a MDoA.

1. d3 - 33% chance
2. d4 - 50% chance
etc...

MDoA is equivalent to a feat or something like that. Think spring attack, cool maneuver (i.e. I run, jump on the table and swing at the monster)

[smathis]

So does MDoA refer to the stunt or to the die? I'd have called the die: BAD. In 3e, you have a Base Attack Bonus, so the die would be your Base Attack Die.

I'm not understanding the stunt system. If a 1st level fighter rolls a d3, what does he need to pull off a stunt? A 3 I suppose? That's 33%. So a 2nd level fighter who has a d4 bonus die pulls off a stunt on a 4? For only 25% or a 3 and 4 for 50%. The third level fighter rolls a d5 and has what chance to pull off a stunt? 20%? 40%? 60%?

I certainly hope the d20 is what is used for the stunt die.

I think it's a 3+ on the little die and a success on the d20. So if you roll a 16 and a 4, you'll hit and get to do something extra with that hit. I don't know if that's stunting but it seems like people have been using it for combat-related stunting in the playtests.

Something that's not combat related would probably be a skill check (I'm guessing). So, like, diving through a window would be a d20 roll. But diving through a window and smacking someone with a flail would be an attack roll with an MDA?

I'm not certain that's how it works. But that's my impression at the moment.

[jmucchiello]

The target # is 3 or higher.

So it get progressively easier for a Warrior to achieve a MDoA.

1. d3 - 33% chance
2. d4 - 50% chance
etc...

Too frequent for me. 3 on a d8 is 75%. That's only 6th level. Starts out too good and gets better real fast.
I could be wrong though. Will have to see it in action.

[Machpants]

Since the core book is only going to level 5, not going to be a problem!

[smathis]

Since the core book is only going to level 5, not going to be a problem!

Yeah, I'm wondering if that didn't have something to do with the hard stop at level 5.

Seems to me like we could milk a few more levels out of this by giving warriors the "Action Die" and then staggering its progression with a "Damage Die" that they roll to increase the damage they're rolling.

So something like this...

Level... Action Die... Damage Die...
1 1d3 --
2 1d3 1d2
3 1d4 1d2
4 1d4 1d3
5 1d6 1d3
6 1d6 1d4
7 1d6 1d4
8 1d6 1d6

It allows a Fighter to do good damage with almost any weapon. Throw in the critical die and you could probably have more to work with on an 8-level progression.

Level... Action Die... Damage Die... Critical Die
1 1d3 -- d20
2 1d3 1d2* d20
3 1d3 1d2 d24*
4 1d3 1d3* d24
5 1d4* 1d3 d24
6 1d4 1d4* d24
7 1d4 1d4 d30*
8 1d4 1d6* d30

Asterisks denote the benefit a Fighter gets at each level. Note that there's one each level! And MDAs never get better than 50%.

[Hamakto]

The target # is 3 or higher.

So it get progressively easier for a Warrior to achieve a MDoA.

1. d3 - 33% chance
2. d4 - 50% chance
etc...

Too frequent for me. 3 on a d8 is 75%. That's only 6th level. Starts out too good and gets better real fast.
I could be wrong though. Will have to see it in action.

Remember MDoA is not extra damage... not a critical...

Think of it as a way to do a cool maneuver and/or feat while making your attack. Remember there are no feats in DCC RPG. So spring attack, power attack, dodge, combat reflexes, etc... they do not exist in DCC. How are they simulated? By a MDoA. As a fighter gets higher level, then yes they should be almost automatic. Remember DCC is capping at level 10. That is like level 20 or 30 in old DnD. You would expect it to become fairly automatic by the time they climb to 8th or 9th level (i.e. 80% chance of success).

Do not take this as gospel, but there was a conversation around one of the tables that talked about doing two levels of MDoA's. The basic MDoA are maneuver type feats. A ADoA (Advanced Deed of Arms -- My words not theirs) would have a target number of 5 or even higher (instead of 3). If you roll above this point, you could do a called shot or do bonus damage. It was a short conversation and I have no idea if it is was just brainstorming or something more concrete.

Remember, you need to declare your action prior to rolling, so in this case if you were shooting for a head shot, and you rolled a 4. You would just do a normal swing and not get a MDoA. As your special action was to try a head shot. It forces a warrior to make a decisions on what they are looking to do. There is supposed to be some detail in the rule book indicating what is covered in a MDoA and what is not covered by it.

[moes1980]

Also, if the MDoA reqires a succesful hit in addition to rolling 3+, than even a 75 percent chanch at level 6 will still fail to activate about half the time. If you used precentile dice for both rolls, its like you have to roll 50 percent or less (on average for a fighter, im assuming), and than you have to roll 75 or less ontop as well in order to get the MDoA. Suddenly it dosn't sound like it is allways going off, but it is going off alot more than level one, where is roll 50 percent or less, and than roll 33 percent or less to pull it off. So it might work out allright.

[bholmes4]

I love the MDoA idea, though it seems like it needs tweaking still.

What I am curious about is how the other classes get to pull off stunts though. I tend to agree it should be a warrior thing but the other classes should have a way to do it (I guess you can always let the DM decide on the fly, like in most old school games).

[geordie racer]

I love the MDoA idea, though it seems like it needs tweaking still.

What I am curious about is how the other classes get to pull off stunts though. I tend to agree it should be a warrior thing but the other classes should have a way to do it (I guess you can always let the DM decide on the fly, like in most old school games).

Well every PC would get the chance to make ability checks.

It's just that warriors have an ability to pull off stunts whilst fighting. It's the ace-up-their-sleeve.

[Hamakto]

Also, if the MDoA reqires a succesful hit in addition to rolling 3+, than even a 75 percent chanch at level 6 will still fail to activate about half the time. If you used precentile dice for both rolls, its like you have to roll 50 percent or less (on average for a fighter, im assuming), and than you have to roll 75 or less ontop as well in order to get the MDoA. Suddenly it dosn't sound like it is allways going off, but it is going off alot more than level one, where is roll 50 percent or less, and than roll 33 percent or less to pull it off. So it might work out allright.

After doing a couple of more play test games, that percentage calculation is not 100% accurate.

Since the MDoA is added to the d20 roll, you will find that you are more likely to hit the higher the MDoA die is (especially at higher levels where with a higher dX die. (i.e. d7 at 5th level).

If you roll a 7 on the MDoA and add in STR and possible magic item bonuses, you are going to hit signifigantly more often than when you roll a 1 on the MDoA die (i.e. 30% more often).

So the formula is not a true static 75% chance, but instead sales a bit towards the higher the MDoA die.

Also, keep this is mind. There is not a steady progression of opponent AC like in prior versions of DnD. The bonuses are a bit less in DCC RPG, so the opponent AC's do not scale as quickly as you level up.

[kataskicana]

Warriors only! +1

If the thief wants to throw himself onto a monsters back from a chandelier he can still go for it - I think that kind of thing is encouraged by old school gaming - but he'd make some kind of d20 roll to succeed... whatever the GM felt appropriate.


Don't see a problem with the % chance. +1

As someone else mentioned above, it isn't a crit, it isn't even an extra point of damage... its a stunt. The mightiest warriors should be able to do kewl things with their attacks on a regular basis. Other than being a ton kewler (and random) it is not that different than the ton of feats a fighter in a 3.x game would have layered onto his attacks.

[Arawn76]

I'm all for warrior / dwarf only. One of my big bug bears is the jack off all trades.

[stacktrace]

I must admit that this mechanic is the one thing about the DCC RPG I am unsure about. Can anyone provide some sample maneuvers used during test games?

[Rick]

I must admit that this mechanic is the one thing about the DCC RPG I am unsure about. Can anyone provide some sample maneuvers used during test games?

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 25&start=0

Regarding the specific question, something DCC RPG tries to achieve is the feel of pre-D&D sword & sorcery. In practical terms, that means not just interesting magic, but also amazing stunts by warriors.

In game terms, D&D has done this for generations and consistently created complex sub-systems as a result. 3E did it with feats, 4E with powers, prior systems with other mechanisms, and they tend to create complexity and limit the warrior far more than what the literature suggests. Conan, Elric, and John Carter didn't specialize in a single weapon style or a special type of fighting to become they heroes they were. They were good at it all.

What I'm playing with right now is base attack bonus. In traditional D&D, fighter types get +1 at level 1, +2 at level 2, +3 at level 3, and so on. In DCC RPG right now, warriors get d3 at level 1, d4 at level 2, d5 at level 3, and so on.

By "d3 at level 1," I mean the warrior rolls a d3 on every attack roll. This attack is d20+d3+Str mod; next attack is d20+d3+Str; etc. It's not a d3 made at the level-up time, but rolled anew every attack.

The sum of these dice forms the attack roll, which is compared to AC as usual.

If the overall attack roll hits, AND that d3 is a 3 or better, the warrior can perform a cool stunt declared at moment of attack. We call this a Mighty Deed of Arms.

Examples of actual Mighty Deeds performed in play:

* When fighting opponents on a staircase, someone used a sword to stab the opponent and then lever them over the edge of the staircase

* In the same battle, someone attacked the foe's legs to knock them off balance and off the staircase

* When fighting a carven image with eyes that shot laser beams, a warrior used a mace to smash out the carved eyes (and thus disarm the laser beams)

* When fighting a basilisk with a hypnotizing gaze, a warrior tried to stab it in the eye to disable its gaze

* When fighting a flying skull that was out of melee reach, a warrior tried to leap off the back of another character into a flying lunge that connected with the skull in mid-air (very cool)

* When hurling flasks of burning oil at a giant toad, a warrior aimed for the toad's open mouth to throw the oil down its gullet

* In a battle with enemies arrayed in a single-file line, a warrior hurled a javelin straight through the first enemy to spear it to the next opponent in line, entangling the one foe with the corpse of his ally

All the examples above were off-the-cuff maneuvers declared by players in-game at the moment of dice rolling (about half these examples came up in my games over the last two days).

[jmucchiello]

Examples of actual Mighty Deeds performed in play:

* When fighting opponents on a staircase, someone used a sword to stab the opponent and then lever them over the edge of the staircase

* In the same battle, someone attacked the foe's legs to knock them off balance and off the staircase

* When fighting a carven image with eyes that shot laser beams, a warrior used a mace to smash out the carved eyes (and thus disarm the laser beams)

* When fighting a basilisk with a hypnotizing gaze, a warrior tried to stab it in the eye to disable its gaze

* When fighting a flying skull that was out of melee reach, a warrior tried to leap off the back of another character into a flying lunge that connected with the skull in mid-air (very cool)

* When hurling flasks of burning oil at a giant toad, a warrior aimed for the toad's open mouth to throw the oil down its gullet

* In a battle with enemies arrayed in a single-file line, a warrior hurled a javelin straight through the first enemy to spear it to the next opponent in line, entangling the one foe with the corpse of his ally

Most of these sound more powerful than I thought MDoAs were supposed to be. Only the flying skull one is in line with what I thought MDoAs were for.

* When fighting opponents on a staircase, someone used a sword to stab the opponent and then lever them over the edge of the staircase

This one wounds the creature, causes falling damage, puts the creature behind enemy lines (assuming the fighter is going up the staircase), and leaves them prone after the fall. That's a lot going on for something that is 33% at 1st level and improves to 50% at 2nd level.

[talmor]

*When fighting opponents on a staircase, someone used a sword to stab the opponent and then lever them over the edge of the staircase

This one wounds the creature, causes falling damage, puts the creature behind enemy lines (assuming the fighter is going up the staircase), and leaves them prone after the fall. That's a lot going on for something that is 33% at 1st level and improves to 50% at 2nd level.

No more powerful than what a fighter can do in 3.x with Improved Trip or Bullrush.

It's obviously a subjective rule--dependent on the players creativity and the GM's willingness/engagement. Against a random bandit or bodyguard of the villian, I think it's fine (if impressive--fighting men are supposed to fight. And well!). Against the lich king himself? You're right, maybe it is too powerful--maybe give the lich a saving throw to resist or tell the fighter in advance that his maneuver might not work.

Personally, none of these seemed overpowered--they're the warriors equivalents to magic. They're supposed to be amazing and impressive. Just as the mage can alter an entire fight with one spell, a warrior should be able to with one lucky and clever maneuver.

[mshensley]

This one wounds the creature, causes falling damage, puts the creature behind enemy lines (assuming the fighter is going up the staircase), and leaves them prone after the fall. That's a lot going on for something that is 33% at 1st level and improves to 50% at 2nd level.

It's not that high because you have to score a hit AND roll a 3 or better. Say you're a 1st level fighter with a +1 Str Mod and you're trying to hit a goblin with a 15 AC. You'd need to roll a 11 or better on the d20 (50% chance) and a 3 on the d3 (33% chance). So the real chance of doing a MDoA against the goblin would be 16.5%.

Now the real question is- do monsters get to declare similar attacks when they roll well?

[mshensley]

In DCC RPG right now, warriors get d3 at level 1, d4 at level 2, d5 at level 3, and so on.

So I guess we can extrapolate the fighter as so-

1 - d3
2 - d4
3 - d5
4 - d6
5 - d7
6 - d8
7 - d10
8 - d12
9 - d14
10 - d16