Goodman Games

I'm sure this is waaaaay early to know for sure, but I'm curious as to how much thought has been put into the way the DCC RPG will be packaged.

Thoughts so far, questions, and a wishlist for the game:

• I assume a boxed set. My guess is that the rulebook will be a standard 8.5x11" size, but it would be cool to have a "digest" size box and rulebook similar to the '74 game.
• I know that many modern games try to "wow" you with glossy paper, fancy fonts, and color pictures, but my concept of "old school" is basic B&W artwork and plain fonts on white paper. (Actually, a lot like the DCC modules, where the outside may be pretty but the inside is useful.)
• Many intro sets come with an intro module -- would it have a special one or would it be assumed that a player would just buy a regular DCC module?
• Has thought been put into some sort of logo? While I like the Goodman Games logo, I think that something specific to the RPG would be neat for product-identification purposes.
• Rumor has it that it would come with funky dice to match the tables in the rules. The Zocchi dice I've seen are not super high quality; it would be nice to have high quality dice that all match, etc. It would be neat if the dice matched the color of the logo.
• I'd like to see a GM screen included in the boxed set if it's a large box. Not as useful if it's a "digest" box.
• Do we know the level range covered by the set? Is there a "basic" (levels 1-3) and "advanced" (levels 4-12) kind of thing planned, or is it intended to be a one-shot rules set that covers all levels?

Just me thinking out loud. What would others like to see?

Great topic, and it's never too early to start thinking about packaging wish lists.

I'm interested in hearing what other folks have to say.

//H

Any new dice used by the game which are non-standard should definitely be included. I think a module is also close to a must have for any new system, and goes a long way to helping it to be understood fully. An existing DCC module with stats converted would be feasible (IMHO) and be quite excellent to have.

I also second the notion that glossy packaging is not required, especially if it pushes the final price point too high.

From what I have seen about the magic system from playtest reports, a spell summary sheet/pamphlet that has the casting tables for each spell in a small easily photocopied format would also be quite welcome, but pure gravy.

I also would like to see an intro adventure bundled with the box set (or sketched in the text of the single rulebook, perhaps in no more detail than in the Holmes or Moldvay basic sets), and if not a GM screen then a set of reference sheets like in the OD&D White Box - including some for players (e.g. class-specific stuff like spell lists).

Tavis wrote:I also would like to see an intro adventure bundled with the box set (or sketched in the text of the single rulebook, perhaps in no more detail than in the Holmes or Moldvay basic sets).

I'd much prefer to have the intro adventure as its own pamphlet, rather than in the text of the single rulebook. The problem with "in book" adventures is that you play 'em once or twice and then they take up space forever. I'd rather have something modular that I can set aside when I'm done with it.

Also, it makes the box look like it has more stuff if it's a seperate booklet!

Tavis wrote:if not a GM screen then a set of reference sheets like in the OD&D White Box - including some for players (e.g. class-specific stuff like spell lists).

Why not both? A GM screen plus some class-specific spell list sheets? Or make the spell list sheets a free/cheap download for those of us who like that sort of thing.

Add me in for the boxed set vote, with a starter module. Add some Erol Otus and Jason Edwards art and Im sold.

A cardstock GM screen included would be an awesome finish but I could live without it if I had to (same with a set of dice). If it boils down to a choice of Dice or Screen, I vote Screen.

Erol Otus and Jason Edwards art - check. Got one thing out of the way.

I'm not sure yet whether the final format will be a boxed set or not. Some thoughts in no particular order:

* I am continually impressed that every pre-1980 edition of D&D managed to pack the entire rules set into 64 pages, give or take. I believe that modern rules "bloat" is one entry barrier for the hobby. Plus I know that many of us are grown-ups now, without an entire summer to blow learning a new game, and I'd really like to publish a game that is actually playable by a significant chunk of the gaming population - which means easy to grasp, easy to learn, and not a massive tome. As such, I am focused on a relatively short rulebook as the primarily (and probably only) rules product. There won't be a PHB, DMG, MM, etc. There will be one book. Maybe a rules supplement once a year or something to support any evolution of the game, but not much more than that.

* I totally agree that this rules book should be accompanied by a short introductory adventure of some kind, whether bound in or a separate product.

* The "Zocchi dice" (as I call them) are a lot of fun and are part of the game. They're currently available from http://www.gamestation.net/ (and can be ordered by your local game store as well). My goal is to also make them available in some format as part of DCC RPG - either included or as a separate branded product.

* As for a boxed set, however...boxed sets are a lot of fun, but also have their complexities and drawbacks. They're automatically more expensive than simply a book, and including things like custom dice and separate adventure booklets raises the price further. It's important to me to have a product that is easy for the consumer to access. I still haven't decided whether to go boxed set or not. It definitely would be fun, though. Still thinking on it...

goodmangames wrote:* The "Zocchi dice" (as I call them) are a lot of fun and are part of the game. They're currently available from http://www.gamestation.net/ (and can be ordered by your local game store as well). My goal is to also make them available in some format as part of DCC RPG - either included or as a separate branded product.

Joseph, which dice are reccommended?

I was looking at the Zocchi sets here: http://www.gamescience.com/12piecedicesets and they don't seem to have all of the ones you've quoted. These Zocchi sets have d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d14, d16, d20 but I'm not sure they have the d24, for example. I'd want to be sure to get all of the shapes I need and not leave any off...

I see the d24 in those pics! Looks like the set I have, which did just fine. I did want a d30 for randomly generating supernatural entities, though, and am ashamed to say I don't own one.

Could you maybe release it as both a single book and a collectors box set? I would prefer a box set with intro adventure and dice. I would be willing to pay more for that option.

...Also I like the idea of a DM screen but would like to see it released with an adventure like you did with DCC#39.

I definitely plan on a DM screen. I already have one mocked up that I use with every session...homemade with some tape and cutout tables. But it helps keep the right tables handy.

Good suggestion of a "collector's boxed set edition." I like that idea...

As for dice, the game primarily uses the 'classic suite' of d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and d20. But I love Zocchi dice and just as we integrated them into many of the DCC modules, the DCC RPG has plenty of tables that use a d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d24, or d30. You don't need every one of them all the time, but you'll probably need at least one of them every session...

goodmangames wrote:* I am continually impressed that every pre-1980 edition of D&D managed to pack the entire rules set into 64 pages, give or take. I believe that modern rules "bloat" is one entry barrier for the hobby. <snip> I am focused on a relatively short rulebook as the primarily (and probably only) rules product.

An admirable goal. If you look at the OD&D brown booklets and actually count pages, it's a pretty small total. Holmes BD&D is the same way. I'd certainly be in favor of a complete but trimmed-down rules set of comperable page count to those editions! Rules bloat is a huge reason why I'm losing interest in the newer editions of D&D.

goodmangames wrote:* As for a boxed set, however...boxed sets are a lot of fun, but also have their complexities and drawbacks. They're automatically more expensive than simply a book, and including things like custom dice and separate adventure booklets raises the price further. It's important to me to have a product that is easy for the consumer to access. I still haven't decided whether to go boxed set or not. It definitely would be fun, though. Still thinking on it...

You're the expert and the boss, so clearly you have a far better feel for the economics of this than I do. I look at this as a fan and I like the old Holmes BD&D set or white box OD&D set a lot, and would be willing to pay the extra for a box. On the other hand, I can certainly understant where a true "entry level" product might price itself out of the market if we're not careful. Boxes and dice to cause the cost to creep up.

I like the idea of a rulebook sold indivually or as part of a boxed set. The boxed set could be simple or deluxe, depending upon how much stuff gets crammed in. Especially if the rulebook is avaiible on its own, it would be nice for the boxed set to be deluxe.

finarvyn wrote: [*]I know that many modern games try to "wow" you with glossy paper, fancy fonts, and color pictures, but my concept of "old school" is basic B&W artwork and plain fonts on white paper. (Actually, a lot like the DCC modules, where the outside may be pretty but the inside is useful.)

I totally agree with this. I own most of the 3.x DCC modules. I love the way they are laid out. I would like to see the RPG have a similar lay out, color on the outside with appealing black-and-white art inside.

goodmangames wrote:Good suggestion of a "collector's boxed set edition." I like that idea...

I will buy that version...especially that I'm now (puts on Mal Reynolds voice) "gainfully employed." Make it limited edition--only a certain, small number of copies get printed, and when it sells out the "standard edition" is what everyone else needs to buy.

Also, your DM screen could be multi-purpose: DM info on one side, and player info on the other. Hell, we hafta stare at it all gorram game long, why not put it to use with something other than art? I like efficiency.

Having talked about efficiency, however, I have to agree that I'd prefer an intro adventure separate from the rest of the rules book(s).

Sunderstone wrote:Add me in for the boxed set vote, with a starter module. Add some Erol Otus and Jason Edwards art and Im sold.

A cardstock GM screen included would be an awesome finish but I could live without it if I had to (same with a set of dice). If it boils down to a choice of Dice or Screen, I vote Screen.

^ What he said.

Ogrepuppy wrote:

Sunderstone wrote:If it boils down to a choice of Dice or Screen, I vote Screen.

What he said.

Remember, however, that part of the rules set is supposed to be built around those non-standard poly dice. (d3, d14, etc.) It's not like you need to have those exact dice in order to generate the right random numbers (ex. roll d20, re-roll 15-20 to simulate a d14) but it might be nice to have them in the box since many gamers won't own a set beforehand.

Yeah I don't have any of those funky dice. I vote for the dice.

Yeah, sorry to disagree with y'all--but I have a phone app that can handle "funky dice" so....gonna stick to my guns on that one.

Ogrepuppy wrote:Yeah, sorry to disagree with y'all--but I have a phone app that can handle "funky dice" so....gonna stick to my guns on that one.

A couple of questions arise here:
1. Will the "typical gamer" have the funky dice already?
2. Would the "typical gamer" enjoy the game as much using a non-traditional method of number generation instead of dice? (e.g. using "chits" or phone apps or roll-and-ignore-certain-numbers, etc.)

In the old days when OD&D came out (1974) the set was designed to use mostly d6's, which was fine because most board games like Monopoly had some and a typical gamer could get ahold of them for OD&D. Except that some parts of OD&D (such as the "alternate" combat system) required d20 dice, which at the time nobody owned. And they weren't part of the boxed set. This was somewhat annoying and eventually TSR began including poly dice in their boxed sets. (But never in OD&D, by the way.)

Nowadays, the main polyhedral dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20) are common enough that I think it's safe to assume that the "typical gamer" would have easy access to a set, although a true entry-level newbie might not have any. From that standpoint, and the fact that many game stores don't carry the unusual shapes, this becomes an important issue in potential customer satisfaction.

Having done dice games before, I'm not so easy to surprise. I can simulate a d3, for example, by just using the d6 and a fast 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 to form the numbers. Some of the others are a bit trickier, like my earlier example of simulating a d14. Simulating a d24 is a lot harder unless you have a d30, which many people don't have, either.

A newbie might or might not think to do this, or might be annoyed that the game wasn't "complete" in much the same way that a toy without batteries isn't complete.

Long ramble, but the bottom line is that I'm not sure that this is a "no brainer" decision.

I prefer the normal polyhedral dice myself

I like the traditional dice as well, but Joseph has made it clear that the current plan is to involve additional shapes.

finarvyn wrote:Having done dice games before, I'm not so easy to surprise. I can simulate a d3, for example, by just using the d6 and a fast 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 to form the numbers. Some of the others are a bit trickier, like my earlier example of simulating a d14. Simulating a d24 is a lot harder unless you have a d30, which many people don't have, either..

The d16 and the d24 aren't hard to simulate, actually. Roll a d8 or d12, and any other die for a high/low. I haven't yet figured out a better way to simulate a d14 than the one you mention, though.

For a d14, you can roll a d8 (re-rolling 8s) and a high-low die.

I strongly support the idea of the entire rules being in a 64-page book. I also strongly support the use of strange dice. (Rolling weird shapes is fun.) Finally, I strongly support all these dice being included with the rulebook somehow. Those non-standard dice are expensive.

Geoffrey wrote:Those non-standard dice are expensive.

Simply to play devil's advocate (I don't have a strongly vested interest whether dice are included or not because I'm buying this game no matter what, even if it means selling my plasma):

Wouldn't including non-standard dice that are expensive....uhh, make the entire boxed set more expensive?!?

I have enough difficulty financially justifying my acquisition of new RPGs to Mrs. Ogre.

Ogrepuppy wrote:I'm buying this game no matter what, even if it means selling my plasma

I'm buying this game even if I have to sell your plasma, too!

Ogrepuppy wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:Those non-standard dice are expensive.

Wouldn't including non-standard dice that are expensive....uhh, make the entire boxed set more expensive?!?

I wondered about that as well. I suppose that would be a good reason to have an "econo" book-only version and a "deluxe" boxed version.

I'm guessing that the problem is that the more versions are out there, the more of a pain it might be for stores trying to anticipate the demand and stock the product.

I knew there was a reason I went into physics instead of business school.