Level 1 player more deadly than 0 level play?

[TallGoblin]

So I have ran several funnels now, some ending in the bloody deaths of the mob of villagers involved. Sometimes the funnels I have ran have just been one shots. Still others have ended with the players successfully defeating the Chaos Lord at the end of Sailors on the Starless Sea and continuing their adventures as 1st level characters.

Both times I have tried to continue into campaign play it has ended in TPK (or near tpk) of the 1st level characters. Both of these occasions have been with the same group of players. It would be very easy to dismissively blame the players for the tpk. I wonder if I am being too hard on them? We have had fun with these games, but the players are wanting to proceed into leveled play and grow tired of the funnel and low level play. My belief is that if they cannot survive 1st level play, they will make the same mistakes at other levels of play.

Ultimately, as long as we are having fun we are doing it correct. I am tempted to have them roll up higher level characters and run with that, but I have reservations that they may not want to play the game again if it ends poorly for them again.

Has anyone else had a similar experience or has ideas on how to handle this?

[finarvyn]

I suppose what it comes down to here is that level-0 characters are "supposed" to die, which is why you get to start with a bunch of them. At level-1, one assumes that characters are "suppsoed" to survive.

Putting it into a non-DCC context, in D&D (of almost any edition) players will tell you that level-1 characters die quite quickly and painfully. It's not until you hit higher levels (levels 3-4 perhaps) that folks start to feel like their character might not die on a whim.

So ... I'd say that DCC characters are still quite fragile at level-1. They just die a lot faster in the funnel.

[TallGoblin]

That's a good way of looking at it.

They guys I'm playing with have had an attitude of "level 0's are lemmings!"

and then they survive and level up, and the attiude changes to "Level 1's are superheroes!"

But level 0's aren't lemmings and level 1's aren't superheroes.

I just need to come up with a middle ground that keeps them interested, or find a new system to play. But I love DCC so much, I don't want to do that.

[GnomeBoy]

What sorts of situations are killing the 1st level characters? Hard to comment without knowing what's going on, e.g., is it a rules mis-interpretation, bad decisions on the players' parts, etc.

I'm assuming it's not just dice being, well, ...random.

[NJPDX]

If your players are comfortable doing it, it might be worth letting them play a couple of 1st level characters ... Also "redshirts." Lots and lots of "redshirts."

[cjoepar]

We had a similar issue when we started our campaign. At one point, everyone in the party bought the farm except one character, and except for that one player, everyone else has cycled through several 1st level characters up until this point. Once the party all reached 2nd level, though, it seemed like the survivability rose exponentially, and now that there are a couple of 3rd level characters, they can handle quite a bit., so I think you will find that once a few of them make it to 2nd level, there will be a tipping point and you will not be killing people so often.

A couple thoughts:
- consider giving every character 2 or 3 extra bonus hp's upon reaching 1st level. The extra cushion will go a long way, and it quickly loses significance as they go up in level.
- have a care about the damage dice that the monsters are using. Try to limit most, if not all, encounters to monsters that only do a maximum of d6 damage. I found that even with monsters using spears and doing d8, if they rolled well, lots of characters died (especially if they had even a +1 Strength modifier).
- consider giving the characters access to some kind of healing herbs or such, something that does a minimum amount of extra healing, so that they lose interest as they go up in level, but that will help them out when their 1st level cleric is having trouble succeeding at a Lay on Hands roll.
- don't neglect non-lethal encounters at low levels. Failure doesn't always have to result in death, sometimes it might just result in getting beaten up and robbed, swindled out of some money by a con-artist, or falling off a ledge and breaking a leg. A character can learn just as much from an encounter like that as they can from running an orc through with a sword. Or maybe the way to earn the most xp's against a tough foe is to negotiate with them instead of rushing right into a fight that gets everyone killed. I tried to put at least one non-lethal encounter in every gaming session when the party was all first level.

[TallGoblin]

What sorts of situations are killing the 1st level characters? Hard to comment without knowing what's going on, e.g., is it a rules mis-interpretation, bad decisions on the players' parts, etc.

I'm assuming it's not just dice being, well, ...random.

SPOILERS FOR PEOPLE OF THE PIT IN THE FOLLOWING DESCRIPTION!

One session, the defacto leader of the group was first in line down a staircase, the party encountered 2-3 cultists coming up the stairs. The party killed the first cultists with spears/pitchforks. The remaining cultist, out of desperation threw his dagger at the leader.

20.

I forget the result exactly but it added +d12 and was a hit to the head -d6 INT. The damage was enough to kill him (but just, he was a Warrior) and the INT minus brought him to 0 INT. Knife between the eyes, dead.

After that, the party encounters the mountain basilisks. I gave them an ominous description before they entered, because the thief had crawled down the walls and into the lair only to be ripped to shreds in the darkness. The group made their way around the back side (opposite of where the thief had entered). I told them they smell the stench of death and an horrific hissing sound.

Charge right in. Basilisks kill everything. The wizard ran, and lived but we ended the session there.

[NJPDX]

People of the Pit is a notable meat-grinder. At least it was when I ran it in a one-shot.

[TallGoblin]

People of the Pit is a notable meat-grinder. At least it was when I ran it in a one-shot.

Aye! It is that.

I love your profile pic, btw

[Ravenheart87]

My experience is that level 1 PCs whose HP roll wasn't totally messed up are way more durable than zeroes. You can also survive for one round on 0 HP and can be recovered later, which increases survivability greatly.

[TallGoblin]

My experience is that level 1 PCs whose HP roll wasn't totally messed up are way more durable than zeroes. You can also survive for one round on 0 HP and can be recovered later, which increases survivability greatly.

And there is part of the problem, for this in particular group. They are getting in situations where they can't flip the body over. Like the guy that took the dagger in the head and now has 0 INT.

It's a deadly game, with even more deadly adventures. It really takes a certain type of player, in my experience, to make it through and have fun with it.

I would love to play at some point (I've only ran games so far) to see if I've got what it takes to survive.

[Borrowed_Thyme]

Rolling your dice behind the screen might allow you to fudge the odd PC annihilating roll .

[NJPDX]

Where is the fun in playing in a rigged game?

[DM Marcus]

We had a similar issue when we started our campaign. At one point, everyone in the party bought the farm except one character, and except for that one player, everyone else has cycled through several 1st level characters up until this point. Once the party all reached 2nd level, though, it seemed like the survivability rose exponentially, and now that there are a couple of 3rd level characters, they can handle quite a bit., so I think you will find that once a few of them make it to 2nd level, there will be a tipping point and you will not be killing people so often.

A couple thoughts:
- consider giving every character 2 or 3 extra bonus hp's upon reaching 1st level. The extra cushion will go a long way, and it quickly loses significance as they go up in level.
- have a care about the damage dice that the monsters are using. Try to limit most, if not all, encounters to monsters that only do a maximum of d6 damage. I found that even with monsters using spears and doing d8, if they rolled well, lots of characters died (especially if they had even a +1 Strength modifier).
- consider giving the characters access to some kind of healing herbs or such, something that does a minimum amount of extra healing, so that they lose interest as they go up in level, but that will help them out when their 1st level cleric is having trouble succeeding at a Lay on Hands roll.
- don't neglect non-lethal encounters at low levels. Failure doesn't always have to result in death, sometimes it might just result in getting beaten up and robbed, swindled out of some money by a con-artist, or falling off a ledge and breaking a leg. A character can learn just as much from an encounter like that as they can from running an orc through with a sword. Or maybe the way to earn the most xp's against a tough foe is to negotiate with them instead of rushing right into a fight that gets everyone killed. I tried to put at least one non-lethal encounter in every gaming session when the party was all first level.

A lot of good advice here I think. I have allowed players to just take the max roll of their class dice at first level and roll in levels thereafter. That little bit of help seems to keep the characters from dying in one round of combat and gives the party cleric time to help if they get in trouble. I don't do it always, but if they have characters that they want to play for awhile, it allows them a little cushion.

[GnomeBoy]

...20...

...horrific hissing sound.

Charge right in...

So it sounds like a combination of dice swingy-ness and not fighting smart.

Dice swingy-ness will also sometimes work in their favor, so that's a wash.

...and they will learn to fight smart and take advantage of their environment with experience playing the game, since it sort of demands that.

[Borrowed_Thyme]

Where is the fun in playing in a rigged game?

If that's what's needed to keep the game on track and the players interested, so be it. The players shouldn't know that the dice were fudged. Instead of a TPK and the end of the adventure, ignore that 20, let a PC escape with the possibility of returning and checking the bodies. You can always apply the 20 to the PC in the next fight if you want.

[Stretch]

Where is the fun in playing in a rigged game?

If that's what's needed to keep the game on track and the players interested, so be it. The players shouldn't know that the dice were fudged. Instead of a TPK and the end of the adventure, ignore that 20, let a PC escape with the possibility of returning and checking the bodies. You can always apply the 20 to the PC in the next fight if you want.

Your better off making adjustments in how and what you have attacking them. If a player figures out you fudged you will have a hard time getting that trust back.

[NJPDX]

Give the players ample opportunity to retreat killer encounters and a few hints and you should never have to fudge again.

James Raggi III says it better here than I ever will

http://lotfp.blogspot.com.au/2008/11/gu ... cecffac76b

[Raven_Crowking]

Where is the fun in playing in a rigged game?

If that's what's needed to keep the game on track and the players interested, so be it. The players shouldn't know that the dice were fudged. Instead of a TPK and the end of the adventure, ignore that 20, let a PC escape with the possibility of returning and checking the bodies. You can always apply the 20 to the PC in the next fight if you want.

Joseph Goodman says it best in the DCC core rulebook:

P. 314: "Let the characters die if the dice so dictate it. Nothing is as precious as a PC’s life when it can be taken away—and nothing is so unchallenging as a game where the players know the judge will not kill their characters. The DCC RPG is designed for high character death rates—let this be true in your game as well. Achieving 5th level in the DCC RPG is a true accomplishment."

and

P. 306: "Total party kill: Don’t end the game! Transport all the player characters to Hell—where they can give in to Death’s demands or try to fight their way out!"

There is no need to fudge the dice.

[GnomeBoy]

...They are getting in situations where they can't flip the body over. Like the guy that took the dagger in the head and now has 0 INT...

So, in this case, if they flipped the body, and I was the GM, I'd say that the guy has a long recovery in front of him, find a way to hand wave as much of that as possible so the player isn't left out for an extended period, and get the character back in the game.

There are bizarre stories of real cases of people continuing their lives with unlikely injuries. Maybe the INT damage can be healed with time -- and how badass would the guy be with a dagger sticking out of his head as he charges his foes?

I actually have an adventure I'm working on where one of the foes has a dagger blade protruding from his forehead. Why not?

I'd think any character who'd lost their hp was still recoverable -- it just takes a little extra work when they are disintegrated, y'know? "Rolling the Body" doesn't have to literal.

[NJPDX]

...They are getting in situations where they can't flip the body over. Like the guy that took the dagger in the head and now has 0 INT...

So, in this case, if they flipped the body, and I was the GM, I'd say that the guy has a long recovery in front of him, find a way to hand wave as much of that as possible so the player isn't left out for an extended period, and get the character back in the game.

There are bizarre stories of real cases of people continuing their lives with unlikely injuries. Maybe the INT damage can be healed with time -- and how badass would the guy be with a dagger sticking out of his head as he charges his foes?

I actually have an adventure I'm working on where one of the foes has a dagger blade protruding from his forehead. Why not?

I'd think any character who'd lost their hp was still recoverable -- it just takes a little extra work when they are disintegrated, y'know? "Rolling the Body" doesn't have to literal.

Yeah. zero Intelligence, just means the character is a drooling idiot, not necessarily dead. Sounds like a hilarious role-playing opportunity for a player.

[GnomeBoy]

...They are getting in situations where they can't flip the body over. Like the guy that took the dagger in the head and now has 0 INT...

So, in this case, if they flipped the body, and I was the GM, I'd say that the guy has a long recovery in front of him, find a way to hand wave as much of that as possible so the player isn't left out for an extended period, and get the character back in the game.

There are bizarre stories of real cases of people continuing their lives with unlikely injuries. Maybe the INT damage can be healed with time -- and how badass would the guy be with a dagger sticking out of his head as he charges his foes?

I actually have an adventure I'm working on where one of the foes has a dagger blade protruding from his forehead. Why not?

I'd think any character who'd lost their hp was still recoverable -- it just takes a little extra work when they are disintegrated, y'know? "Rolling the Body" doesn't have to literal.

Yeah. zero Intelligence, just means the character is a drooling idiot, not necessarily dead. Sounds like a hilarious role-playing opportunity for a player.

And the problem is... where?

Looking over the crit charts, sometimes when Ability damage is specified it says 'permanent' and sometimes it doesn't. Ability damage in general can be healed (or even 'cured' when permanent, for that matter). From what I can see, it must've been a 7HD cultist (so Chart IV), and thus one of the more dangerous foes in the whole thing. There's a crit result that leads to loss of INT, but it doesn't look permanent.

The character obviously wasn't a genius to begin with -- he went up against a 7HD cultist, eh?

I think the bottom line is: Is it better the character is dead and you start a new one, or to have a recovery time and keep that character going (if the player wants to keep it going)?

The flavor text is there to change as you will. The mechanics in this case are survivable. The character might have continued just fine.

If too many characters are dying, maybe it's because the GM/players are deciding that they're irrevocably dead, when meanwhile the game isn't making them dead.

A blow to the head, while temporarily disorienting, doesn't have to mean any sort of permanent brain damage -- as the survivor of a bike crash, on that point I can definitively say: fnarg zebrigglestive mmookt.

[Radish]

I am curious as to whether the OP has had a Halfling in the party. In my group's experience, the game becomes much more survivable with a Halfling. The ability to share luck may not protect the PCs from hot dice on the judge's part, but the party will hit more often, wizards and elves will keep their spells longer, clerics will avoid disapproval, etc.

I'd also make sure the PCs are aware that they can cast spells they've lost via spellburn, since that's another thing that goes a long way to increase a party's survival odds. There are a lot of rules, and this is one that my group has forgotten on occasion.

[TallGoblin]

Looking over the crit charts, sometimes when Ability damage is specified it says 'permanent' and sometimes it doesn't. Ability damage in general can be healed (or even 'cured' when permanent, for that matter). From what I can see, it must've been a 7HD cultist (so Chart IV), and thus one of the more dangerous foes in the whole thing. There's a crit result that leads to loss of INT, but it doesn't look permanent.

...I'm the worst Judge. I looked back at my reference charts. I must have used something from the beta testing (maybe?). But I bumped the Crit chart up one for that cultist. He was 1HD. Crap.

[GnomeBoy]

...ah, so "Death By Rules Inexperience"...!

It happens to all of us at some time, I expect...