DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandbox?

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Johann
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DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandbox?

Post by Johann »

I’m currently preparing a sandbox DCC campaign set in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy so the following thoughts are theoretical and not based on actual play. Take them with a grain of salt.

(I've been pondering this for a while but now a cool thread called DCC needs an overland adventure and epic campaign has triggered this post.)

*-*-*

As Tavis Allison points out at The Mule Abides the DCC RPG is designed to generate unpredictability.

This is an excellent protection against railroading. Magic, in particular, is nigh unpredictable – the maximum results of first level spells (i.e. on a roll of 32+) are truly spectacular – a sleep spell can put an entire dungeon to sleep, charm can sway a small army, and enlarge grows the caster to a height of 100’ (with hit points and AC to match), conceivably enabling him to unroof a dungeon or tear down a castle.

If the judge has more than just a location and motivations for monsters in place, such magic can easily derail any oh-so-precious plot. I find this protection against railroading refreshing and consider it a major draw of DCC.

*-*-*

However, the aforementioned extreme results can be achieved reliably (barring a natural 1) by using spellburn, i.e. temporarily sacrificing 20 ability points (which return at a rate of 1/day).

So what’s stopping a wizard PC from having a ‘fifteen minute adventuring month’?

In one-shot-games (e.g. at cons) this is hardly a concern.

But what about regular campaign play?

This forum contains numerous threads in which posters suggest balancing the awesomeness of spellburning by being an active, hands-on judge. Some options are as follows:

(a) play up the consequences of ability loss (e.g. by having the weakened Stamina-1-wizard roll to avoid catching a nasty cold and getting pneumonia),
(b) take the fight to the PCs (e.g. by having the party attacked as it tries to rest)
(c) specifically target the wizard (e.g. by having mighty NPCs or monsters react to a wizard flaunting his power by sending assassination squads, always attacking the wizard first etc.)
(d) prevent the party from getting any rest (e.g. by having the dungeon’s door slam close behind the party or having a time limit)
(e) adapt the world (e.g. by giving rulers access to antimagic fields, using monsters immune to the wizard’s spells etc.)

All of these are fine, but I suspect they are at odds with sandbox play which is very much about the judge being ‘hands-off’ and the players choosing their objectives, selecting an approach, and - perhaps most relevant to the problem at hand - setting the pace.

Megadungeons are miniature sandboxes, for instance, and even though the good ones are dynamic, the PCs usually get to rest up in town as they like (if they can make it back safely).

So I’m a bit worried. I’d like to start my campaign with the Barrowmaze dungeon and then progress to free exploration of the Wilderlands but right now I can’t see this working at all.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by finarvyn »

I don't see that DCC is any worse than any other RPG system for a "sandbox" style game. DCC is a set of rules; no more and no less. In fact, the fact that wizards have no set number of spells they can cast can actually counteract the "five minute day" effect in many game systems.

When I playtested DCC I ran some new modules and some old AD&D modules and did some "wander the wilderness" style adventures to see how the game worked out. I think that DCC is designed to give a fun experience, no matter the setting or style of play.

DCC has a "must play modules" reputation simply because that's the product that Goodman Games is selling. If they put out a nice "sandbox" style game setting, that whole thing would totally go away.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Raven_Crowking »

DCC does sandbox perfectly fine. If the wizard can adventure for 15 minutes in a month, and has the cash to keep himself in good stead, let him. Others may do more during that time. Or not.

IMHO, a sandbox should not be static - events happen, and the PCs may or may not wish to become involved in them. Some events may prompt a response regardless (i.e., if they are living in Pompei on Volcano Day, war or pestilence break out, there is famine or fire or flood, etc.). I just had two weeks' vacation, and it was not uninterrupted!

A good idea is to have a general timeline for background events, regardless of where the PCs are (it gives them news to hear, as well as things to do). There are tables in the back of the 1e Oriental Adventures book which can easily be modified for any culture or setting, and these are a good place to start, with weekly, monthly, and annual events.

Most of the time, though, let them rest up as long as they like. Just make sure that others can act while some rest, if they so choose. And make sure that resting costs something (i.e., they need to pay for food, upkeep, and perhaps rent).

Give it a shot. DCC does this very well, IMHO.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by cjoepar »

As I've mentioned when this has been brought up previously, I balance Spellburn by increasing the chance of corruption proportionately for every point of spellburn used. I have found this to be a natural deterrent to the MSTR (Massive Spellburn Then Rest) tactic.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by cthulhudarren »

Nobody else seems to like my approach of making spellburn take time to mitigate its use in combat. The more points you use the longer it takes. Right now I am hovering around at 2 points/caster lvl per action die.

But on the original topic, I don't see why DCC RPG does not work with a sandbox.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Radish »

This summer I've been running DCC in a relatively open setting (I say "relatively" because, while there's a large dungeon with many possible avenues of exploration, the outside world is horribly underdeveloped). The campaign has worked well, and has largely been driven by player choice (there are a few meta-rules: for instance, the players and I agreed that they'd leave the dungeon and return to town at a good stopping point around 9 pm, since we play on a weeknight and all of us have to work in the morning).

Those choices aren't consequence-free: between last week's game and last night's session, for instance, the players decided to spend a day of rest, so the party wizard could regain his Comprehend Languages spell and recover the ability score point he spellburned in order to cast CL again after having previously lost it for the day. During that period of rest, the time-travelling lizard men thieves they'd trapped in an area of the 2nd level of the dungeon were killed by one of that region's more fearsome denizens. Perhaps if they'd returned more quickly or had fled without trapping the lizard men something else would have happened. Likewise, some of the adventure hooks that the player's haven't pursued might change the world in ways that later affect their characters.

I haven't had anyone do a super-spellburn yet, but when they do, if they choose to chill out for a couple of weeks to regain their ability scores, I'll let them make that choice. But maybe those are the two weeks I decide to bring back into play certain other choices they've made over the course of the campaign (the cursed gem the party thief sold after the funnel, or the demon they unwisely freed), or maybe an event requiring urgent attention will arise. The PCs absolutely 100% can ignore these events, and continue with their plan to recover from spellburn, but that's a choice that will affect the campaign world, too.

What I'm describing fits my definition of sandbox play, but it might not fit everybody's. Stuff happens in my campaign because of player choices (and, except for the few meta-rules mentioned above, their choices aren't really constrained). The world doesn't sit still when PCs do, but the events that occur off-stage are still rooted in the decisions they've made and the actions they've undertaken.

(As an aside: I'm honestly not sure that, even if those off-stage events were not rooted in player decision -- say, if while they were in the dungeon, a neighboring duchy invaded the town above the dungeon -- it would violate the spirit of sandbox play, provided the player's choices in response to that event weren't constrained)

This was a very long-winded way of saying: I think DCC works just fine with sandbox play, at least as I define "the sandbox".
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Raven_Crowking »

That's how I define "sandbox" too.
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Skyscraper »

I would echo many of the posts here.

To me, sandbox does not mean an inactive world that awaits for the PCs to do something. Any world, sandbox or otherwise, will have things happen, NPCs that are active, and stuff that happens around the PCs.

If one player says "I want my PC to spend a month recovering from his major spellburn", I'll say "OK, we'll spend the next few game sessions with the other PCs, would you like to play a henchmen meanwhile?" or some such. When the wizard player sees the other players adventuring, gaining XP, gaining wealth, doing stuff, maybe he'll reconsider the downtime or how much he spellburns next time.

I think that it's fine for a wizard to nuke the place with a major spellburn. Just don't mold the entire campaign around him. Let it be the other way around.

IMHO.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Johann »

cjoepar wrote:As I've mentioned when this has been brought up previously, I balance Spellburn by increasing the chance of corruption proportionately for every point of spellburn used. I have found this to be a natural deterrent to the MSTR (Massive Spellburn Then Rest) tactic.
I think this is an excellent idea! I integrated it into my house rules when you first talked about it here. Thanks.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Johann »

Radish wrote:This summer I've been running DCC in a relatively open setting (I say "relatively" because, while there's a large dungeon with many possible avenues of exploration, the outside world is horribly underdeveloped). The campaign has worked well, and has largely been driven by player choice (there are a few meta-rules: for instance, the players and I agreed that they'd leave the dungeon and return to town at a good stopping point around 9 pm, since we play on a weeknight and all of us have to work in the morning).
Thanks for sharing! This is giving me hope!
raven_crowking wrote:Most of the time, though, let them rest up as long as they like. Just make sure that others can act while some rest, if they so choose. And make sure that resting costs something (i.e., they need to pay for food, upkeep, and perhaps rent).
I think this would work very well in a West Marches style campaign, but it's not suitable for my group:

As my house rules make DCC more deadly, a cautious approach is called for -- making it unlikely that the warriors and thieves would set out without the wizards.

More importantly, "Dave and Jack can go adventuring tonight while Bill and Lisa have to sit around fiddling their thumbs or playing henchmen" is just not an approach I or my players would consider.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Skars »

We generally maintain a stable of PCs for characters to pickup in the case their primary PC is incapacitated or unable to make the session. Or, of course , in the event they meet an untimely demise :P

I ran DCC RPG with the Isle of the Unknown Hex Crawl for about 10 months and had a blast.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by ragboy »

I've been running DCC in a sandbox since the Beta. Works great!
Johann wrote:This forum contains numerous threads in which posters suggest balancing the awesomeness of spellburning by being an active, hands-on judge. Some options are as follows:

(a) play up the consequences of ability loss (e.g. by having the weakened Stamina-1-wizard roll to avoid catching a nasty cold and getting pneumonia),
(b) take the fight to the PCs (e.g. by having the party attacked as it tries to rest)
(c) specifically target the wizard (e.g. by having mighty NPCs or monsters react to a wizard flaunting his power by sending assassination squads, always attacking the wizard first etc.)
(d) prevent the party from getting any rest (e.g. by having the dungeon’s door slam close behind the party or having a time limit)
(e) adapt the world (e.g. by giving rulers access to antimagic fields, using monsters immune to the wizard’s spells etc.)

All of these are fine, but I suspect they are at odds with sandbox play which is very much about the judge being ‘hands-off’ and the players choosing their objectives, selecting an approach, and - perhaps most relevant to the problem at hand - setting the pace.
I see all of these as absolutely essential to sandbox play. Not at odds, at all. A sandbox, in my experience, has been a "living world." The opposite of an "adventure path." In a living world, the characters, despite their growing power, don't really make a hill of beans. The world lives as it lives, the characters are just there to experience it. If they destroy a jungle cult and bring their treasures back to civilization, you can guarantee that they didn't kill all the cultists. There's a CHANCE that they'll be tracked down at some point. If the wizard slashes open her veins in a muddy swamp to bind to Urgiloth the Toad Queen, you can damn well expect there's a CHANCE of that wound festering before it fully heals.

That's how I approach the sandbox -- there's a chance of the party drawing attention to themselves (which is essentially what your list consists of above). There are chances of them finding certain clues that provide them the opportunity to go a direction and get involved in some "plot." But, it's just as likely that the thief, "sandboxing around," pisses off a local magistrate by stealing something important and we spend the entire session running from the city watch.
Johann wrote:
So I’m a bit worried. I’d like to start my campaign with the Barrowmaze dungeon and then progress to free exploration of the Wilderlands but right now I can’t see this working at all.
This is precisely how I started my campaign -- Stonehell megadungeon until the party was sick of it and then off into the sandbox. They ended up digging through the Barrowmaze for many sessions, and then moved on to something else. Some stuff I developed beforehand, some stuff I developed on the fly, and sometimes I threw in a published dungeon. For me, it was about having the base world detailed enough that I can throw anything into it -- plenty of hooks and plenty of opportunities. The player's choose the direction.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Ravenheart87 »

Actually the "Quest For It!" mentality that DCC RPG emphasizes cries for sandbox play.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Johann »

Thanks guys - especially Skars and ragboy! It's fascinating and heartening to read about your campaigns.

(Makes me wanna check out the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer -- it sure sounds as if it'd be perfect to drop into a sandbox.)
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by oncelor »

We've been running a sandbox campaign for over a year now. Lots of fun. I've found that powerful spell results -- while fun when rare -- are not as fun when they happen every encounter. If I start a new DCC sandbox, I will introduce a couple house rules to limit powerful spell results and to make them more chaotic. I've also found that it's very hard to kill my characters because of the 1 round/level recovery rule combined with the 2nd level cleric spell that restores permanent damage done to abilities; unless I'm threatening a total party kill, the players really don't fear being killed any more. I have added some house rules (negative hit points, permanent ability damage that cannot be healed from dying) to address this as well.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by DM Marcus »

oncelor wrote:We've been running a sandbox campaign for over a year now. Lots of fun. I've found that powerful spell results -- while fun when rare -- are not as fun when they happen every encounter. If I start a new DCC sandbox, I will introduce a couple house rules to limit powerful spell results and to make them more chaotic. I've also found that it's very hard to kill my characters because of the 1 round/level recovery rule combined with the 2nd level cleric spell that restores permanent damage done to abilities; unless I'm threatening a total party kill, the players really don't fear being killed any more. I have added some house rules (negative hit points, permanent ability damage that cannot be healed from dying) to address this as well.
Too, doesn't the DCC guide tell you that clerics healing wizards can have a negative effect because the deity might find it an affront.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Raven_Crowking »

oncelor wrote:I've also found that it's very hard to kill my characters because of the 1 round/level recovery rule combined with the 2nd level cleric spell that restores permanent damage done to abilities; unless I'm threatening a total party kill, the players really don't fear being killed any more.
Hmmm. I know of two official modules that end with a very good chance of bodies never being recovered. One more so than the other. You need to recover the body within 1 hour in order to roll it over. Both have reasons that the fallen might not have received magical healing, either, because of the rising action in the adventure.

In my home campaign, when the monsters started dragging off the bodies of the fallen, the players sat up and took notice. Again, no body, no recovery roll.

Up the save DCs and general stats in modules like Bone Hoard of the Dancing Horror and Mermaids From Yuggoth (or just increase the number of monsters), and you'll soon have players who wish that death was all that they had to worry about - both of these adventures can leave PCs in a state that is worse than death. (Mermaids can be found in In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer; in the same book, Icon of the Blood Goddess can result in a lost PC or two that the others will never recover without powerful magic).

What happens if the fight occurs by a rushing underground river? Where do the fallen get deposited, if anywhere the PCs can reach? Do they follow the current after the fallen, or work their way in the same direction as quickly as they can, hoping to discover where the water goes to? Or do they take their time, play it cautious, and let the other PC(s) die?

How do the PCs deal with fast "snatch & run" predators? Imagine what happens when a PC is reduced to 0 hp by a shark....and the shark swims away with the body. Flying predators would be just as good....Thongor is snatched by a roc, Tarzan by a pterodactyl when at the Earth's core. If they do not save themselves, who will do it for them?

What about chutes that open in front of the lead characters...leading down into darkness.....follow or leave them to their fate?

Even at 10th level, there is only a 10-round grace period to receive magical healing. A battle against hordes of individually weak creatures might sweep away from the fallen....can the cleric win through in time to reach him? What if the battle is on shifting ground, so a check is needed to move each round? What if the field itself is a complex puzzle where understanding the rules, rather than moving directly toward the fallen is needed? (In this last case, I am picturing the moving staircases at Hogwarts or a battle atop a gigantic clockwork.)

After the bleeding out period is done, the body must be rolled over, and even if every character always has an 18 Luck, there is a 10% chance that the character is well and truly dead.

There is nothing wrong with the players becoming more confident as their characters become more heroic. In fact, I think that this is a bonus. But they should never be completely confident; there should always be some edge of concern that, maybe, this time Death will be seeking the Brave Sir Robin. Restore vitality takes some of the sting out of being "almost dead", as long as Miracle Max isn't the one being dragged away by the ghouls, or the Princess Buttercup is not simply in a coma due to "dying" in her dreams in Through the Cotillion of Hours. Once Wesley is sacrificed by The Folk of Osmon to their dread deity, it really doesn't matter to him that the rest of the party is alive. He is beyond the reach of ought they can do.

(See how cleverly I plugged a bunch of stuff I wrote? The same is true for a bunch of stuff I did not write. Doom of the Savage Kings, for instance, has a potential "death" that is not so easy to recover from, even if you are 8th level when it occurs.)

Best of luck!
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by ragboy »

oncelor wrote: I've also found that it's very hard to kill my characters because of the 1 round/level recovery rule combined with the 2nd level cleric spell that restores permanent damage done to abilities; unless I'm threatening a total party kill, the players really don't fear being killed any more. I have added some house rules (negative hit points, permanent ability damage that cannot be healed from dying) to address this as well.
The way I handle this is that the "dead" character is out of the action for a base of one month modified by Stamina score in days (so the least that their down is 12 days The most is 27.) They also lose one physical ability permanently (cannot be healed) and may end up with an actual physical disability (hand cut off, lose an eye, lamed, etc) based on the injury that fell them. It doesn't sound fun, but so far my players love it. This also adds an element of "quest for it" in that the warrior that lost his sword hand hears of a mythical silver hand that once belonged to Skal, chieftain to a group of Northron warriors lost on the jungle island of Praeder... (see issue 1 of DAMN!).

I don't try to be the unfun DM, but I believe that if you _die_ there should be consequences. Just like if you call upon the power of your god or invoke your patron. You owe the universe something... We have had one character fall five times and be brought back from the brink. He's missing an arm, an eye, and barely has any Stamina left. His missing arm was replaced by a semi-sentient creature that shoots balls of plasma (if the character can maintain mental contact with the entity). So...I try and make it fun.

As far as Restore Vitality goes, I would have to consider the implications to the recipient of this spell. A _god_ just regrew your lost leg (32+). What do you owe and can you afford it?
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by oncelor »

These are good ideas, and I have battles in situations like these from time to time (my ghouls always stop to devour their victims, for instance). I guess I just don't want every battle to have to take place in a raging river or on a puzzle-floor in order for there to be meaningful tension.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Skars »

Mundane competition results in less XP :). The encounters that result in pc death utilizing the tactics Daniel and others have suggested, pay larger rewards. Stuff like loadstones and Cursed Codpieces of Constriction of course :twisted: When's the last time you let them step on a polymorph trap? Nothing like a bit of magic to counterbalance powerful magic and luck. Finally, apply Deity Disapproval for every Cleric Spell Cast successful or not for metagaming it :P
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Raven_Crowking »

oncelor wrote:These are good ideas, and I have battles in situations like these from time to time (my ghouls always stop to devour their victims, for instance). I guess I just don't want every battle to have to take place in a raging river or on a puzzle-floor in order for there to be meaningful tension.
I find that, like using James Raggi material, a little goes a long way. When the players discover that being dropped does not always mean you are there to be rolled over, or even that something other than potentially dying is the result, it need not occur every time. Indeed, it need occur only once every so often, and the players seem to understand that they should not take survival (in one piece) for granted.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: DCC protects against railroading … but can it do a sandb

Post by Skars »

Speaking of Raggi material, the telescope transport device inadvertently sent one of my hapless characters to a far off planet covered in these weird moss creatures while playing around in the Tower of the Stargazer. That was a recent campaign moment that immediately came to mind when reading this thread. :)
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