Fighter Mighty Deeds

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Thane
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by Thane » Sat May 12, 2012 6:35 am

goodmangames wrote:Have you had a chance to run some games yet? Don't overthink Mighty Deeds - they should require NO work from the judge. It's up to the PLAYER to define them. Every time the warrior lands a strike, he should be describing his attack and what he attempts with the mighty deed.

For some players, this is really hard. They're not imaginative in how they think of attacks, or they're stuck on 3E feats as a way to run their fighter, or something else. Some players never "get it" and they continually forget to declare their Mighty Deed.

But for most players, they gradually "get it" and then start to really love Mighty Deeds. On every single attack, they define a special move. Usually they figure out to attempt different moves at different times (this one's a trip, this one's a disarm!). Eventually they may settle into a rhythm with a couple preferred moves.

At low levels there are only a couple possible results from a Deed (they're rolling d3 or d4 and trying to get 3+) so you really only have 1 or 2 possible results from every Deed. By the time the characters start to approach 3rd or 4th level, you have a sense of what the fighter tends to attempt, and you can start determining how that ability might scale. But remember: it is the PLAYER'S job to declare what he tries to do. All you have to do is think through, "okay, he needs to be 3rd level to try this version of it and 4th level to try this other version" (since the Deed results roughly correlate with level based on the deed die). You will have many sessions of game play between each level-up, so there's plenty of time to think and scale...
Problem is that it's vague.

For example

'Cutting off the opponent's hand'.
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

'Taking the rider out of his saddle with well aimed blow'
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

And so on. Perhaps not the best of examples, but I hope it gets my point across.
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by DCCfan » Sat May 12, 2012 6:45 am

I think the answer is that you need to just do it. Challenge your players to come up with some lists of mighty deeds and play. Just play the game and if a deed seems to powerful then scale it back for the next adventure. Just have fun with it.
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deedse

Post by shadewest » Sat May 12, 2012 6:47 am

I describe it to 3E playersas combat maneuvers, the kind that you get with a feat. For 4E players, I tell them it's like an encounter power, the deed is what it does besides the damage. As far as adjudicating the deeds that are called, I try to incorporate the number on the deed die itself when deciding the effect. A lot of times it's just yes/no. When players cal for something that would be a killing blow, it let the deed die do its own values in additional damage. It that's enough to kill, it works, otherwise, I describe how close they got. Otherwise, I use the number some other way:

I try to cut off the eyestalks!
Whats your deed die?
3
Then that's how many you cut off.

I try to hamstring him
Deed die?
5
Then he loses (5x5) 25 feet of movement.

Don't feel constrained by the charts in the book, they're just examples. Be improvisational, and you'll have some really awesome.
...unless the judge rules otherwise.

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by giant » Sat May 12, 2012 6:49 am

Thane wrote: Problem is that it's vague.

For example

'Cutting off the opponent's hand'.
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

'Taking the rider out of his saddle with well aimed blow'
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

And so on. Perhaps not the best of examples, but I hope it gets my point across.
I might rule these like such:

1) Called shot against the weapon hand:

3+, strike the hand, -2 to attack rolls for the remainder of combat

4+, as above +disarm

5+, as above +sunder

6+, hand cut off

7+, hand cut off, carrying through to the body, extra damage

2) Knocking rider out of the saddle

3+, rider knocked out of saddle but lands well and recovers on the ground without penalty

4+, rider knocked prone

5+, rider knocked prone and stunned,

etc.

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by PeelSeel2 » Sat May 12, 2012 9:52 am

I have run two sessions so far, one with 20 zero levels, and one with 24 zero levels. Both where fantastically fun for me as a DM, and the feedback from the 8 players was super positive. First group had a 40% death rate, the second about a 30%.

I have not got to adjudicate the fighter mighty deeds yet, and I am really not going to worry about it. In long term play, they may reach 5th level......may. They will need all the brains, luck, and good combat maneuvers they can muster.

I was worried about nothing. I know my players are real creative and will use the hell out of mighty deeds. But in the end, even for "high" level play death is but a die roll away.

Great game Joseph. Thanks!!

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by goodmangames » Sat May 12, 2012 10:55 am

I agree with the examples above. For the "cut off hand" entry, I might even rule that the hand is completely cut off on a low result against a minor enemy (i.e., the equivalent of a kobold) whereas against a more powerful enemy with better defenses, it takes a higher roll.

The most fun Mighty Deeds are the ones that are situation-specific and could never have a table pre-designed. In People of the Pit there is a staircase up which several cultists come in single file. In one session the warrior decided he would try to skewer them all on one sword-stroke, then use the "skewer" to hold them together and keep them from fighting! I just told him he needed a 3+ to skewer two, 4+ to skewer three, 5+ to skewer four, etc. I forget exactly how many he skewered but he pulled it off and ended up with several cultists held together on a skewer, and limited their ability to attack.

Another time, I was running Emerald Enchanter. It has a scene where these flying skulls buzz around and shoot laser-like beams at the players. The skulls were like 20' off the ground. One character had used up all his missile weapons (I forget how but all he had left was a dagger). So he did a Mighty Deed where he leaped onto the back of a friendly character, then leaped from there into the air, and slashed at the emerald skull as he passed in mid-air. I told him he needed the max result on his deed die to pull that off (I think he was 2nd level so it was a 4). He did it! And it was awesome.

The goal of the mechanic is to allow maneuvers on the fly. Maybe it just takes some game play to get a "sense of scale," what's appropriate and what's not. Ideally there shouldn't be any pre-work required.
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by Thane » Sat May 12, 2012 11:28 am

So what is being said here is

Make up tables 'if' you wish - but the entire Mighty Deeds thing, was meant to accomodate 'off the cuff' spontaneous buckets of awesome?

And if it really is that cool a move - you really should make a note of its mechanics?
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by shadewest » Sat May 12, 2012 11:39 am

Thane wrote:So what is being said here is

Make up tables 'if' you wish - but the entire Mighty Deeds thing, was meant to accomodate 'off the cuff' spontaneous buckets of awesome?

And if it really is that cool a move - you really should make a note of its mechanics?
Yes, if you think you're going to try it again. That's the purpose of signature deeds. Never
Let warriors roll without a deed.
...unless the judge rules otherwise.

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by reverenddak » Sat May 12, 2012 11:53 am

shadewest wrote:
Thane wrote:So what is being said here is

Make up tables 'if' you wish - but the entire Mighty Deeds thing, was meant to accomodate 'off the cuff' spontaneous buckets of awesome?

And if it really is that cool a move - you really should make a note of its mechanics?
Yes, if you think you're going to try it again. That's the purpose of signature deeds. Never
Let warriors roll without a deed.
Yes, this. If you noticed, in the core book, there are EXACTLY 716 spells in existence. I like the say there are EXACTLY 666 Mighty Deeds, only 7 are given as examples.
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by Johann » Sun May 13, 2012 4:39 am

Thane wrote:'Cutting off the opponent's hand'.
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

'Taking the rider out of his saddle with well aimed blow'
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

And so on. Perhaps not the best of examples, but I hope it gets my point across.
These are excellent examples of Mighty Deeds of Arms. However, I think that codifying the difficulties and effects is counterproductive.

Consider your first example: Shouldn’t it be more difficult to hack off the hand of an experienced fighter? Easier with a minor enemy, as Joseph suggests? What about an ogre? An iron golem?

I could whip up a table and a couple of rules to deal with this (e.g. target’s HD < attacker’s HD means difficulty 3, equal HD means difficulty 4 etc.) but I’d never manage to cover all eventualities.

What about a character with the Hand of Vecna attached? Should it be easier to cut off (because the hand wants a new bearer) or harder (because it’s an artifact)?

Next thing you know is that the write-up of such an artifact includes a DC or target number or whatever.

I think the tables on pp. 89-92 are well-intentioned (and fun to read!) but might have been a mistake. The rules imply that only warriors can disarm, push back or trip enemies and - Joseph's explicit advice not withstanding - that there is a limited number of deeds which can and should be looked up in the rules. The problem is that DCC says "make up your own" and then presents us with four pages worth of tables which might inadvertently stifle creativity.

My advice? Use your own experience (e.g. with D&D 3e or 4e, as suggested above) as a baseline or try to wing it and trust in learning by doing.

Don't get me wrong though - I love DCC! More on this - including house rules for Mighty Deeds - on my blog.

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by Thane » Sun May 13, 2012 8:43 am

Johann wrote:
Thane wrote:'Cutting off the opponent's hand'.
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

'Taking the rider out of his saddle with well aimed blow'
Is that 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+ or 7+?

And so on. Perhaps not the best of examples, but I hope it gets my point across.
These are excellent examples of Mighty Deeds of Arms. However, I think that codifying the difficulties and effects is counterproductive.

Consider your first example: Shouldn’t it be more difficult to hack off the hand of an experienced fighter? Easier with a minor enemy, as Joseph suggests? What about an ogre? An iron golem?

I could whip up a table and a couple of rules to deal with this (e.g. target’s HD < attacker’s HD means difficulty 3, equal HD means difficulty 4 etc.) but I’d never manage to cover all eventualities.

What about a character with the Hand of Vecna attached? Should it be easier to cut off (because the hand wants a new bearer) or harder (because it’s an artifact)?

Next thing you know is that the write-up of such an artifact includes a DC or target number or whatever.

I think the tables on pp. 89-92 are well-intentioned (and fun to read!) but might have been a mistake. The rules imply that only warriors can disarm, push back or trip enemies and - Joseph's explicit advice not withstanding - that there is a limited number of deeds which can and should be looked up in the rules. The problem is that DCC says "make up your own" and then presents us with four pages worth of tables which might inadvertently stifle creativity.

My advice? Use your own experience (e.g. with D&D 3e or 4e, as suggested above) as a baseline or try to wing it and trust in learning by doing.

Don't get me wrong though - I love DCC! More on this - including house rules for Mighty Deeds - on my blog.
Good points

Got me thinking, can npc/monsters use mighty deeds to 'chop the hand off' a pc?
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by reverenddak » Sun May 13, 2012 8:51 am

Thane wrote: Got me thinking, can npc/monsters use mighty deeds to 'chop the hand off' a pc?
Why not? It's an excellent way of making Warrior NPCs "feel" like warriors. Just don't fall into the trap making NPCs work like exactly PCs.
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by Harley Stroh » Sun May 13, 2012 9:51 am

Thane wrote:Got me thinking, can npc/monsters use mighty deeds ...
That would be a pretty *awesome* way to throw a high level fighter off his game. Have an anti-paladin (or whatever) stride in and start kicking some butt, and then all of a sudden your fighter knows that it is ON.

in this instance (fighter on fighter) I would totally consider letting one successful Mighty Deed nullify another Mighty Deed. So you have d'Artagnan vying against an assassin, on a rooftop, each countering the other's signature moves, while wearing each other down. (E.g. nullifying the other's Mighty Deed, but still inflicting "damage," reducing HP from a successful "hit." That's a pretty sexy duel right there.)

I guess a better example would be Drizzt versus Artemis, but you get the idea.

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by shadewest » Sun May 13, 2012 12:18 pm

NPCs using deeds? Absolutely. It might be a good way to demonstrate to recalcitrant warrior players what you mean. Don't go too far, though, especially with the villains. A classic moment in geekdom dismemberment is Darth Vader cutting off Luke Skywalker's hand. When something like that happens, it should be significant.

Now I've got an idea for a dueling system, with deeds being able to counter and interrupt other deeds, etc.

I've got work to do...
...unless the judge rules otherwise.

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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by reverenddak » Sun May 13, 2012 12:36 pm

shadewest wrote: Now I've got an idea for a dueling system, with deeds being able to counter and interrupt other deeds, etc.

I've got work to do...
Could work very similar to Counter-spells. Iiiiiiiiiiiintherestingggggggggggg.
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Re: Fighter Mighty Deeds

Post by shadewest » Sun May 13, 2012 1:40 pm

reverenddak wrote:
shadewest wrote: Now I've got an idea for a dueling system, with deeds being able to counter and interrupt other deeds, etc.

I've got work to do...
Could work very similar to Counter-spells. Iiiiiiiiiiiintherestingggggggggggg.
That's where I'm starting, but I also intend to look at other games that include dueling and swashbuckling mechanics for inspiration.
...unless the judge rules otherwise.

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