Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by GnomeBoy »

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm used to it), but somehow -- crazy idea, I know -- I get the suspicion that mightyjules is somewhat interested in this book....
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mightyjules
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by mightyjules »

Well,i like the the monk class very much as you might guess.Though I´m pessimistic if Goodmangames realy did a good job.Moongoose Publishing did sourcebooks for many classes too for 3.5.But never made a good one.I terms of balancing and flavor and so on.But mostly balancing issues.

I do not see why Goodmann should not suffer from the same problems a Moongoose did in the past.

The question is if the Publisher can take it to publish a book which is not balanced and out laid out nice (in terms of Image).Image is everything!Especially in such a small market like RPG! .Many many people already argued very much about Layout.

We will see.....
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by Tavis »

We just got a look at the art layout for the book - I can say it's awesome without modesty, since I had nothing to do with this aspect :)

Preview should be coming soon so you can judge for yourself - we recommended some pages that ought to give you a good sense of where we're coming from.

As I was saying in another thread, balance is very hard to get right in general and even more so when the system is so new. We did put a lot of work into playtesting with multiple different groups, however, and the tournament upheld my sense that no class is outshone by the others and each can make an equal contribution in play, making the party more than the sum of its parts.

The WotC barbarian doesn't look balanced to me at first glance - multiclassing seems like it'd be broken, and unlike other strikers I don't see why they couldn't get bonus damage three times in one round by using an action point and Heavy Blade Opportunist - but it'd take a lot more study and actual play to overcome my basic impression that those guys know what they're doing.
Co-author: Forgotten Heroes: Fist, Fang, and Song and Scythe and Shroud; Heroes' Handbook: Eladrin; and two finished Goodman projects that haven't been announced yet, with others on the drawing board!
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by Tavis »

And here is that preview, including layout by Jim Pinto and some awesome pieces of art by Britt Martin. Oh, and also the druid class up to level 5.
Co-author: Forgotten Heroes: Fist, Fang, and Song and Scythe and Shroud; Heroes' Handbook: Eladrin; and two finished Goodman projects that haven't been announced yet, with others on the drawing board!
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by mightyjules »

Hmm, interesting!

The book will be black and white then?Do you have a release date now?The goodmanguy wrote "late October" a while ago.What´s next?
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by Tavis »

mightyjules wrote:The book will be black and white then?
Yep, which suits my old-school sensibilities just fine. If only the art were ten grades less professional, the font size and margins two eye-hurtingly sizes smaller, and there were also cartoons of monks and bards roleplaying a game called "Papers and Paychecks," I would be in pig heaven.
mightyjules wrote:Do you have a release date now?The goodmanguy wrote "late October" a while ago.What´s next?
Specifics I dunno. In general, what's next is another Forgotten Heroes book that's already written, and another one that's contracted; we just had our first design meeting for that project and it's shaping up to be awesome, especially now that there are some other examples of class design to use as inspiration & ways to further expand what's possible. (The PHBII barbarian does a lot of stuff with the striker that I wouldn't have dreamed of trying to get away with - being "official" has its advantages, I guess!)

I also pitched a project that's got promise, but nothing to report yet, and ChattyDM has posted about a project he's got going with Goodman, about which he's still being appropriately mysterious. I had the pleasure of playing in a session Mr. Menard ran at Gen Con, and expect awesome things from him!
Co-author: Forgotten Heroes: Fist, Fang, and Song and Scythe and Shroud; Heroes' Handbook: Eladrin; and two finished Goodman projects that haven't been announced yet, with others on the drawing board!
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by Arawn76 »

I see this is now available as PDF but when will we see print in the UK?
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by goodmangames »

Arawn76 wrote:I see this is now available as PDF but when will we see print in the UK?
It's at the printer now and should be available in US stores in mid November. UK stores usually get it within a week of that date.
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by Arawn76 »

goodmangames wrote:
Arawn76 wrote:I see this is now available as PDF but when will we see print in the UK?
It's at the printer now and should be available in US stores in mid November. UK stores usually get it within a week of that date.
As always, thanks :D
The beauty of the soul shines out when a man bears with composure one heavy mischance after another, not because he does not feel them, but because he is a man of high and heroic temper"

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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by mightyjules »

Tavis wrote:
mightyjules wrote:- How did you guys solve the point that monks generally don´t wear armor?Do they now?Robes or wholebody G-Strings :D ?
Monks can wear enchanted cloth armor - most of the things you can imagine as a mage's robes can also be visualized as a martial artist's gi or kimono. But their AC comes mostly from a stance - round to round, they can choose a defensive posture (boost AC) or a fluid posture (boost movement), or two other stances.
mightyjules wrote:- What about the unarmed damage?Is it improving like the old class?How many times?@ Paragon and Epic?
Monks have options that let their unarmed attacks stack up against other martial weapons in terms of proficiency bonus and base damage, with a feat that puts it in the range of a superior weapon. Damage increases through powers, with level 30 powers doing 7[W] - but the base W doesn't increase. Even though I love the way the AD&D monk wound up doing d20 damage with each of their multiple hits, it woudn't play nicely with 4E multiclassing.
mightyjules wrote:- What about being the best "savingthrower"?Guess not anymore eh?
+1/+1/+1, like a paladin. In defensive posture and with a balanced build, though, I've seen monks achieve a "cant-touch-me-ness" that feels true to prior editions.
Hello there Tavis,

just downloaded your Book.Mixed feelings so far.Not very happy actually. Though there´re some question´s it´d like to discuss.

First:Savingthrows. "Cannot mess me feeling in defensive posture".The +2 to reflex you mean?

second: damage. How exactly comes the monk in epic to 7 W?

General about the monk

Negative

- no exotic weapons like kama, senghai and so on
- AC boosture (defence posture ) unclear stated.Will be more weak compared to other classes in terms of AC and Armour in
General. Magic Clothing also way more expensive then other an less effective. No specific rules there!Because he wont
have always the +2 more expensive not well balanced. That all ready a big issue in the 3.5 about the monk.I don´t get
why you guys haven not solved it.A + 3 at 11 and +4 at 21 would have made very much sense to me.Why leaving
Wisdom to ac also?!
- no elemental damage in powers
- still no combinations of stances (cannot active)
- no new magic weapons or armors and special abilities except the secret techniques
- only 2 Talents for epic and paragon! :roll:

Positive

- all in all nice powers
- Weaponmasterstyle
-
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Re: Forgotten Heroes: Fang, Fist, and Song

Post by Tavis »

As a fellow fan of the monk, I'm sorry my interpretation isn't a better fit for what you're looking for, mightyjules! I based mine on the original appearance of the monk in D&D (1975's Supplement II: Blackmoor) and the Hong Kong action films that inspired that creation, both because I'm an old-schooler by inclination and because I figured that by sticking with the source I could cover the elements that were most common to all the interpretations of the archetype that have come since. There are definitely some variants, like the mystic master of elemental energies and the peaceful subduer, that aren't part of Gygax and Arneson's original vision for the class - other 4E sources will hopefully give more love to those types of monk.

Re: savingthrows, monks have exceptionally strong defenses for a striker because they get a class bonus to Fort, Ref, and Will; each of their class-relevant ability scores contributes to a different defense, with their primary ability score driving AC; and their defensive posture gives benefits equivalent to not only light armor but also a heavy shield, which most strikers will lack.

Re: damage, many martial classes have daily powers that deal 7[W] at epic levels. Are there specific powers you thought were unbalanced?

Re: exotic weapons and monk-specific armor, in general we tried to avoid making unique things for a class whenever existing ones could do the job. This is both to save on ever-tight word count, and in order for DMs of ongoing campaigns to feel like they can introduce one of these classes without having to also introduce a bunch of new items just for them.

I felt like the classic monk weapons could be handled as exotic-looking but functionally-similar versions of the 4E basics (sai = dagger, kama = sickle, nunchaku = flail, bo staff = quarterstaff, jo staff or tonfa = club, etc), especially given that the qualities that distinguish these weapons in 3E (like bludgeoning vs. piercing damage, or a bonus to disarm) aren't carried over in 4E.

Likewise, using enchanted cloth armor seemed like the most elegant solution for having monks' AC scale with level as other classes do. I originally wanted to have monks not even use cloth armor (as per Blackmoor) and get a fixed bonus to AC at the levels when other classes would be getting better magic armor, as I think you're suggesting, but my fellow authors pointed out that would have let monks get something for free that others have to pay for, would have made it more complicated for DMs who want to alter the availability of magic items, and would have deprived monks of the fun choices about what armor to wear that other classes get. Using Wisdom to boost AC is a Third Edition idea - monks relying on Dex for their AC is in keeping with 4E and AD&D, and results in a better overall defense since Dex is their primary stat.

It sounds like there is some stuff in FH that you'll find useful in making a monk that suits your own tastes, and I hope you'll share the results when you do!
Co-author: Forgotten Heroes: Fist, Fang, and Song and Scythe and Shroud; Heroes' Handbook: Eladrin; and two finished Goodman projects that haven't been announced yet, with others on the drawing board!
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