Questions on Unarmed attacks

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dunbruha
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Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dunbruha »

I have 3 questions about the Unarmed Attacks section on p 29.

1. "Note that an unarmed attacker normally sustains Potential-Harm equal to what he inflicts when parried by an armed foe." What does "parried" mean? Using Weaponry ADP? Using Deflect ADP? Using any ADP? Does this damage apply regardless of the armed defender's choice of defense? What if the defender does not use any defense pool, but is armored? This use of "parries" is also in the following paragraph. Could you please clarify?

2. Does Specialization in Grappling, Brawling, or Pugilism avoid taking Potential-Harm when attacking an armed opponent (as does specializing in Martial Arts)?

3. "This [the Martial Arts Specialization] allows a martial artist to use their Weaponry ADP even if they are unarmed!" There is no mention of using Martial Arts in Weaponry ADP on p 33, and I can't find it mentioned anywhere else. Additionaly, how does this relate to the Advanced Unarmed Defense advantage (on p 22 in the Design Note)?
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:
1. "Note that an unarmed attacker normally sustains Potential-Harm equal to what he inflicts when parried by an armed foe." What does "parried" mean? Using Weaponry ADP? Using Deflect ADP? Using any ADP? Does this damage apply regardless of the armed defender's choice of defense? What if the defender does not use any defense pool, but is armored? This use of "parries" is also in the following paragraph. Could you please clarify?
This rule concerns only the use of Weaponry ADP. If any other ADP is chosen (or lack thereof), it doesn't apply.
2. Does Specialization in Grappling, Brawling, or Pugilism avoid taking Potential-Harm when attacking an armed opponent (as does specializing in Martial Arts)?
No, which I admit makes martial arts somewhat "special". If you want to add that feature to each of the specializations, you can call it "pressing the attack" in general, and restate the advantage.
"This [the Martial Arts Specialization] allows a martial artist to use their Weaponry ADP even if they are unarmed!" There is no mention of using Martial Arts in Weaponry ADP on p 33, and I can't find it mentioned anywhere else. Additionaly, how does this relate to the Advanced Unarmed Defense advantage (on p 22 in the Design Note)?
Martial Arts does not directly contribute to the Weaponry ADP. However, it does allow use of Weaponry to defend "as if" the body were a weapon in hand. The Advanced Unarmed Defense advantage allows the character to add the basic Unarmed die-rank MRV to Evade or Toughness. Which you choose would depend on character concept. 8)
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dunbruha
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dunbruha »

dancross wrote:
dunbruha wrote:
1. "Note that an unarmed attacker normally sustains Potential-Harm equal to what he inflicts when parried by an armed foe." What does "parried" mean? Using Weaponry ADP? Using Deflect ADP? Using any ADP? Does this damage apply regardless of the armed defender's choice of defense? What if the defender does not use any defense pool, but is armored? This use of "parries" is also in the following paragraph. Could you please clarify?
This rule concerns only the use of Weaponry ADP. If any other ADP is chosen (or lack thereof), it doesn't apply.
Thanks, I'll make a note of this.
2. Does Specialization in Grappling, Brawling, or Pugilism avoid taking Potential-Harm when attacking an armed opponent (as does specializing in Martial Arts)?
No, which I admit makes martial arts somewhat "special". If you want to add that feature to each of the specializations, you can call it "pressing the attack" in general, and restate the advantage.
No, if it's just Weaponry ADP that causes damage, I think that these will be OK as is.
"This [the Martial Arts Specialization] allows a martial artist to use their Weaponry ADP even if they are unarmed!" There is no mention of using Martial Arts in Weaponry ADP on p 33, and I can't find it mentioned anywhere else. Additionaly, how does this relate to the Advanced Unarmed Defense advantage (on p 22 in the Design Note)?
Martial Arts does not directly contribute to the Weaponry ADP. However, it does allow use of Weaponry to defend "as if" the body were a weapon in hand.

??? I don't follow. If a character has no additional ranks in Melee (i.e., put everything (combat-wise) into Unarmed), then his Weaponry ADP would only be D4 (according to the description on p 33).

Say a character had Unarmed (D6) > Martial Arts (D8). Would he have 14 in his "Weaponry" ADP? or would it be 18 (including the original D4 in Melee)?
The Advanced Unarmed Defense advantage allows the character to add the basic Unarmed die-rank MRV to Evade or Toughness. Which you choose would depend on character concept. 8)
So any specializations would not count? So the character above could only add D6 to Evade or Toughness?
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

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??? I don't follow. If a character has no additional ranks in Melee (i.e., put everything (combat-wise) into Unarmed), then his Weaponry ADP would only be D4 (according to the description on p 33).
True, but his ranks would still contribute to active defense, mostly an Evade DP bonus from 4 to 8 points. Using whatever "weaponry" as a mode of defense while unarmed is a bonus.
Say a character had Unarmed (D6) > Martial Arts (D8). Would he have 14 in his "Weaponry" ADP? or would it be 18 (including the original D4 in Melee)?
He'd have whatever his Melee tree added up to. His martial arts might contribute to one or more ADPs in bonus points, but you don't add MRV to Weaponry. However, he can use the Weaponry pool when unarmed.
(The Advanced Unarmed Defense advantage allows the character to add the basic Unarmed die-rank MRV to Evade or Toughness. Which you choose would depend on character concept) ...So any specializations would not count? So the character above could only add D6 to Evade or Toughness?
Yes, but the specializations do count, just in different ways depending on the unarmed martial art style, with harm bonuses, bonuses to evade and initiative bonuses...or other types of specializations...

Karate: Harm Bonus +1 punch or +2 kick, Mastery Evade Bonus +4, Initiative bonus +1
Judo: Mastery Evade Bonus +6, +1 grapple, Initiative bonus +2.
Aikido: Mastery Defense Bonus +10, initiative bonus +4.
Kung Fu: Harm Bonus +3 (punch or kick), Mastery Evade Bonus +8
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dunbruha
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dunbruha »

dancross wrote:True, but his ranks would still contribute to active defense, mostly an Evade DP bonus from 4 to 8 points. Using whatever "weaponry" as a mode of defense while unarmed is a bonus.
Ok, it's starting to sink in, I think. How about an example?

A character has Melee D6, and Unarmed D8 > Martial Arts D6. He would have D6 in his Weaponry ADP, whether he is armed or unarmed. But how does he get an Evade bonus?
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:True, but his ranks would still contribute to active defense, mostly an Evade DP bonus from 4 to 8 points. Using whatever "weaponry" as a mode of defense while unarmed is a bonus.
Ok, it's starting to sink in, I think. How about an example?

A character has Melee D6, and Unarmed D8 > Martial Arts D6. He would have D6 in his Weaponry ADP, whether he is armed or unarmed. But how does he get an Evade bonus?
Okay, first I noted that Randy's choices on bonuses were dependant on mastery. Randy may not agree with me, but I personally would make the listed bonuses dependant on specialization, and add a few more bonuses for mastery. I'll work on an update to that soon. In the meantime, consider all bonuses in the book as part of specialization in the specific martial art form.

Your example character, using my revision, would have a 6 in Weaponry, and if his martial arts form were "judo", you'd add 6 to Evade, and you'd get a +1 to grapple attempts and an init bonus of +2.
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dunbruha
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dunbruha »

dancross wrote:Okay, first I noted that Randy's choices on bonuses were dependant on mastery. Randy may not agree with me, but I personally would make the listed bonuses dependant on specialization, and add a few more bonuses for mastery. I'll work on an update to that soon. In the meantime, consider all bonuses in the book as part of specialization in the specific martial art form.

Your example character, using my revision, would have a 6 in Weaponry, and if his martial arts form were "judo", you'd add 6 to Evade, and you'd get a +1 to grapple attempts and an init bonus of +2.
I think this is good, because a "classic" unarmed monk-type would probably not have much in Melee weapons, and thus would have almost no defense pools at all against Melee weapons (minimal Weaponry, and minimal Deflect; all he would have is Evade). So some kind of Evade bonus is needed.

Speaking of that, in the Aikido Specialization [formerly Mastery], it lists a "Mastery Defense Bonus +10". What Pool does this add to? Evade?
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dancross »

dunbruha wrote:
dancross wrote:Okay, first I noted that Randy's choices on bonuses were dependant on mastery. Randy may not agree with me, but I personally would make the listed bonuses dependant on specialization, and add a few more bonuses for mastery. I'll work on an update to that soon. In the meantime, consider all bonuses in the book as part of specialization in the specific martial art form.

Your example character, using my revision, would have a 6 in Weaponry, and if his martial arts form were "judo", you'd add 6 to Evade, and you'd get a +1 to grapple attempts and an init bonus of +2.
I think this is good, because a "classic" unarmed monk-type would probably not have much in Melee weapons, and thus would have almost no defense pools at all against Melee weapons (minimal Weaponry, and minimal Deflect; all he would have is Evade). So some kind of Evade bonus is needed.

Speaking of that, in the Aikido Specialization [formerly Mastery], it lists a "Mastery Defense Bonus +10". What Pool does this add to? Evade?
Yes, that would be evade. I'm glad you see why we tweaked it as it is, although there's always room for improvement. ;-)
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by Malcolm »

I have a player who's keen to use cestus(es), that is the Roman pugilist's metal-studded gloves. My thoughts were that these would add 1 to harm bonus to the boxer, allow parrying or deflection (knuckledusters would be no good, but gloves or gauntlets are big enough), but not the Martial Arts ability to avoid taking damage from armed opponents. Any thoughts?

Cheers --
Malcolm
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dancross »

Malcolm wrote:I have a player who's keen to use cestus(es), that is the Roman pugilist's metal-studded gloves. My thoughts were that these would add 1 to harm bonus to the boxer, allow parrying or deflection (knuckledusters would be no good, but gloves or gauntlets are big enough), but not the Martial Arts ability to avoid taking damage from armed opponents. Any thoughts?

Cheers --
Malcolm
I think that sounds perfect. :)
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by shalley »

Hello friends, I am thinking about learning aikido. I just don't know how effective it is going to be if I had to use it in a real life situation. Has anybody used aikido in a real situation? Or has anybody used any other form of martial art in a situation? Just interested to see just how effective martial arts really are in defending yourself for real. Thank you very much.
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Re: Questions on Unarmed attacks

Post by dancross »

shalley wrote:Hello friends, I am thinking about learning aikido. I just don't know how effective it is going to be if I had to use it in a real life situation. Has anybody used aikido in a real situation? Or has anybody used any other form of martial art in a situation? Just interested to see just how effective martial arts really are in defending yourself for real. Thank you very much.
Hey Shalley, Aikido is really cool because you use your foe's strength and momentum against him, without necessarily hurting him. Beyond that I'm no expert...I only play characters that are experts!

I do think my role playing game handles martial arts well. Such things have been a staple in FRPGs for quite some time...
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