DCC World ~ map design questions

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Omote
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DCC World ~ map design questions

Post by Omote »

I hope by posting this I;m not giving too much information away, so I'll keep my comments as "safe" as possible.

Based on my assumptions on laying out the map, it seems as if we are only seeing 1/3 or 1/4 the whole world. Was this planned? And with the maps being as excellent as they are, is it even in the realm of possability to see the other sections released, regardless if there is adventure content that goes with it or not?

Was the "realism" (i.e. satellite view) of the terrain on the maps originally a conscious decision? I think this is the frist time we've seen (at least on this level) maps with realistic topography for a fantasy world.

Why are the lakes and other small bodies of water colored the way they are? Doesn't this lead to make these bodies of water appear to be like the forested regions?

Speaking of the forested regions, why was there another layer of forested regions added over the "base" topography. It seems that the base map had plenty of areas that was already covered forest in the design program.

Please note: There are no compaints with the maps at all. I'm just facinated with designing maps and wanted to get the desinger's (and others) thoughts on these exquisite maps.

.........................................Omote
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Post by Harley Stroh »

Excellent questions, all. I will answer the ones I can.

1/3 of the world? Yes, this was intentional, leaving realms to be developed by future DCC releases. You can see the seeds of these locations in the "Beyond the Known World" chapter, but those are only the beginnings.

Satellite view? This came late in the design process, but the entire team was stoked on how it came out. Future boxed sets will have maps with a smaller scale, that will be more useful on the table top.

Water vs. Forest? That's amusing because in some of my original B/W maps, the forests were mistaken for lakes. Your critique is duly noted, and we'll see if we can't make them stand apart a little more. We will be releasing updated maps images including the new DCCs as the line continues.

After that, I'll have to refer you to Topo Rex. I'm sure he'll drop by any minute. Thanks again for the questions.

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Post by Harley Stroh »

BTW, here's a link I've been holding onto for a while. It's a jpeg of some of my original DCC world maps. Seeing them, you can appreciate the magic wrought by TopoRex. :)

http://www.poisonclanpress.com/NW_continent.jpg

//H
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Post by Omote »

Thx for the link, H. That is interesting to see the progression from your maps to the final product. What's even more interesting is the even more "earth-like" appearence in your maps. :wink: Very cool.

........................................Omote
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Post by Harley Stroh »

Nods. The earth-like geography was intentional, a throw-back to the RE Howard Conan maps. The development team moved the map (for the better) away from that direction. I'm stoked with the end product. :)

//H
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Post by PeelSeel2 »

AGGGRH. I want this product even more now. Curse not being at GenCon!!
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Forests and Lakes and Topography, oh my!

Post by toper »

Greetings, and I guess I should put in my two cents here.

First of all, it's good to see that you're so interested in the maps and your observations are all issues that were considered at some point. I'll try to explain my approach and reasoning blow-by-blow here:

* Lakes: The coloring is intentionally different from the seas for a couple of reasons.
Firstly: lakes and inland seas are a different geographical animal from oceans. The water is different (fresh vs. salt in virtually every case), the life therein is different, and they reflect the consistency of the earth and minerals of which their shores consist more than the the powerful, churning oceans. They are also with very few exceptions notably shallower, so the color of their bottoms often show through the glare of the surface.
Second: The second reason is a visual/reference choice: Bright blue-ish lakes stand out far too glaringly amid the greens and browns of the maps, whereas the current colors are a gentler contrast, and so are (in this mapper's opinion) more effectively assimilated into the map as a whole.

* The 1/3 or 1/4 issue: This is always fodder for conversation and speculation, and for that reason alone I think it's always the right thing to do! :) Plus, as Harley points out, it leaves the barn door open for more horses to charge out.

* Realism: Good question. Yes, this was a conscious decision. We weighed it against a more painted vision (like the old D&D Gazetteers) or a more vector-type map (like old Greyhawk), but although we were clearly creating a testament to the original campaign world, we were also creating a new world and a new idea, so we wanted the maps to reflect this. I am actually pleased in the surprise it has created. 8)

* Forested regions: You bring up yet another conscious decision: When I originally laid out the lands and the mountains, I had not yet added the forests and wondered about leaving it as it was. But the problem was that the coloring of the lands did not match the necessary locations for the forests, and without totally smearing the existing topography about, they couldn't be made to do so. Second, for a lot of people, it would be unclear what was forest and what was grassland, and just telling them which was which is not an effective rendering decision ("show, don't tell"). Remember, the land cover (not including mountain ranges) is a pastiche of real-world textures. Although, you may notice in the Lostlands, the jungle in the south-east corner is not like the other forests...that one is a real-world texture! It seemed to work where the others did not, and since there were no forests nearby to clash with it, and it was a jungle not a deciduous forest, well, I just left it like that! Sometimes the art tells you what to do, not the other way around.

I hope this helps a little bit. When tackling cartography at this level (officially known as the "Please Help me God!" level), you have to straddle the line between respecting the laws of nature and the penciled ideas of Harley and Mike. I don't mention Jeff in that sentence because he gave me a map rendered in Photoshop, but which was no less clear in its demands on what must be there, etc. I think you probably saw the hand-drawn maps! :D

I joke, of course. Harley and Mike's (and Jeff's) maps were more than I needed, and it's my job to turn them all into something more than they are when I get them.

THAT'S MY I AM TOPOGRAPHIC REX!!!!! :roll:
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Post by Jeff LaSala »

BTW, here's a link I've been holding onto for a while. It's a jpeg of some of my original DCC world maps. Seeing them, you can appreciate the magic wrought by TopoRex.
I've got some huge copies of Harley maps like these stored in a mailing tube at my house. I wonder how much I'll be able to Ebay them for after a few months... ;)
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Post by bobrunnicles »

Since I wasn't at GenCon and thus don't have the real maps yet (:evil:) I'd just like to say that in their absence I actually really like Harley's hand-drawn maps. But then I'm also a big fan of the old Judge's Guild Wilderlands maps, which looked hand drawn on parchment paper (albeit with a hex grid overlaid on top), they just have that feel of 'authenticity' to them.....like a player's handout for the GM :)
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Post by Jeff LaSala »

I can understand that, Bobrunnicles, but I think Toper's maps are about as authentic looking as you can get in a fantasy world. They look like what you'd get if you went to download Google Áereth. :)
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heh heh

Post by toper »

I just like the handle "bobrunnicles"

How can anyone not like that?

I hear you on the old maps feel, I like those kinda maps too. Maybe on another project we might try something different, but as Jeff says, this time we felt this was the way to go.

Nonetheless, I like that you brought up those old JG maps. Talk about blast from the past. Whew.
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Post by bobrunnicles »

Jeff LaSala wrote:I can understand that, Bobrunnicles, but I think Toper's maps are about as authentic looking as you can get in a fantasy world. They look like what you'd get if you went if download Google Áereth. :)
Hey, I'm not saying I *prefer* Harley's maps, just that I thought they were pretty cool in their own right. From the previews for the boxed set on the site, I think the real maps look like they will totally ROCK :) FWIW I did the map design for two wargames from MMP/The Gamers (A Raging Storm and Screaming Eagles In Holland) and while I really like the way the 'real' maps turned out I also liked my hand drawn efforts too :)
toper wrote:I just like the handle "bobrunnicles"

How can anyone not like that?
Aw, shucks, thanks guys :oops: Regrettably I'm just too unimaginative to keep track of multiple different handles for all the fora I subscribe to - it's easier just to use my name; after all there just aren't that many 'Runnicles' in the world :)
Nonetheless, I like that you brought up those old JG maps. Talk about blast from the past. Whew.
They just seem to me like something that might actually exist in the fantasy world itself, know what I mean? I can see some aged librarian pulling them off a shelf, blowing the dust off and then unrolling them onto a table so that the PCs can pore over them. Which is pretty cool in and of itself :)
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Post by Harley Stroh »

Totally. Feel free to abuse them for your own purposes, and get your PCs good and lost in the North.

"We've been travelling for weeks! Where are those $%^&&^* Black Fens?"

"Well the gnome that sold you the map did say that it might not be entirely to scale ... Which reminds me, time to roll for random encounters."

//H
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Post by Omote »

Jeff LaSala wrote:They look like what you'd get if you went if download Google Áereth. :)
This is like, the best explanation of the maps so far. Perfect!


Thanks for the detailed explanation TOPO REX, we apprecate it. Personally I'm grateful that this map has been done with realistic topography and visuals. Personally, I think this may set a new precedent in the FRPG map-market.
toper wrote: Although, you may notice in the Lostlands, the jungle in the south-east corner is not like the other forests...that one is a real-world texture! It seemed to work where the others did not, and since there were no forests nearby to clash with it, and it was a jungle not a deciduous forest, well, I just left it like that!
This was the exact reason I brought up this topic. My assumption was that these Lostlands weren't fully developed and therefor an overlay of additional forest regions wern't used for that reason. However, even without the clear borders of forested regions spelled out, that region of the world looks great.

It would be nice to see the missing parts of the maps though... even if there wern't any products to go along with them yet... we know you have the unfinsihed portions on your computer... somwhere. :wink: Show us now! :wink: No really... j/k...
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Post by Harley Stroh »

No fear there, Omote. I do have maps, but Áereth is large enough for itself right now...

*laugh* That said, I just got a proposal from an author for a DCC that will be set on the very western edge. :)

//H
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Post by Mike_Ferguson »

Omote wrote: This was the exact reason I brought up this topic. My assumption was that these Lostlands weren't fully developed and therefor an overlay of additional forest regions wern't used for that reason. However, even without the clear borders of forested regions spelled out, that region of the world looks great.
Thanks. The Lostlands were fun to develop.

I think I spent two nights drawing the maps of the Lostlands on the concrete floor of my garage, drawing strange and exotic lands on long sheets of butcher paper with a Sharpie marker. Combine that with the auto paint fumes wafting from the spray booth in the corner of the garage, and if the Lostlands seem a little strange ... well, now you know why. :D

I absolutely love Jeremy's work on the maps - I'm glad that it's been met with such high praise so far! (And it's also nice to read such positive comments about the DCC World from the fans as well.)
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Post by Akrasia »

While I plan on purchasing this product, and am sure that the overview maps will be very attractive based on the preview, this comment made me stop:
Harley Stroh wrote: ...Satellite view? This came late in the design process, but the entire team was stoked on how it came out. Future boxed sets will have maps with a smaller scale, that will be more useful on the table top. ...
Hmmm ... this is pretty disappointing information.

Useful, detailed maps are very important to me and my DM/GM style. This is one of the main reasons why I'm so fond of the Wilderlands (and the old Known World/Mystara Gazetteers, and the old ICE Middle-earth campaign modules as well).

I don't want to have to wait for some future boxed set (and lay out additional money) in order to get useable maps. (I mean by 'useable maps' maps that I can use as a DM, while my players 'explore' the wilderness, mapping things out with hex paper, or at least marking their course on a daily basis if they already have access to a good map.)

This is not a deal-breaker, but I guess I was hoping that some more focused, useful maps would be included in the set. :?
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Post by Jeff LaSala »

I'm not actually sure why the topographic map isn't useful? The map still has a scale provided, and you can gauge the terrain just as well as any hex map. Literally superimposing a hex grid over everything would probably be more functional and easier to use, but it wouldn't look very good.

I think we were aiming for both good functionality and good looks, honestly. So it's kind of a balance of the two.
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Post by Harley Stroh »

I hear you, Akrasia, but in the end the world was too large to do the 5 mile scale used by Wilderlands. It wasn't born out of a marketing ploy but rather from a design ethic. Which may or may not be right, your call:

When I began drawing the world, I researched the old Greyhawk maps, did some longitude/latitude checks, determined the distance on Oerth between year round glaciers and the equator, and did the same for our planet Earth.

My math was crude, but the discrepancy was enormous. As in “how does Greyhawk have earth-comparable gravity?” enormous. I mulled over the idea of magical gravity, super dense planetary core, etc, but they all seemed pretty silly. So when I pitched the idea to the design team, one of my goals was to make a “realistic” fantasy world, on the scale of a real world. We ended up scaling this back a bit, but at least the glaciers and jungles are a reasonable distance apart.

An added, IMHO, very important virtue of this is that it doesn’t tie down any of the future writers/ GMs. On this scale, you can conceivably add needed cities and towns and not contradict the setting. The world was intentionally created for development – something that is a little trickier with the hex-by-hex assignment of Wilderlands boxed set.

Again, I hear your concerns, Ak. I’m sorry that we disappointed you.

//H
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Post by Akrasia »

Harley Stroh wrote: ... Again, I hear your concerns, Ak. I’m sorry that we disappointed you.

//H
Well I certainly still plan to get the box set. :)

I was just hoping for a few maps with smaller scales (not the entire world, but perhaps a few areas that contained a noteworthy number of already-published adventures). I'm not sure what to do, as a DM, with simply a large-scale map for adventures. But the setting sounds too intriguing to pass up.
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Post by toper »

Akrasia wrote:
I was just hoping for a few maps with smaller scales (not the entire world, but perhaps a few areas that contained a noteworthy number of already-published adventures). I'm not sure what to do, as a DM, with simply a large-scale map for adventures. But the setting sounds too intriguing to pass up.
Clearly it would always be nice to have all sorts of 'zoom's on the maps, for GM's to streamline their campaign and adventure preparations. But I think in the case of Aereth, the concept of leaving the world open for development was not only a design theme, but in fact very much the core purpose of the setting to begin with! There are already quite a few well-designed, fully realized world settings out there (Mystara, F. Realms, Kalamar, Ptolus, Wilderlands, just to name a few), so there was little need for another. Therefore designing a world that matched the wide-open approach and appeal of the DCC line made perfect sense from our perspective. There was every intention of NOT fully designing and locking down the world to every five square miles, etc., and I suspect many people will find that ultimately, that works swimmingly for their campaign!

Don't be discouraged from sharing a bold opinion, we are always glad to hear from you, whether praise or critique. As for me, I'm just sharing my counterpoint.

The ultimate key of all this is, quite simply, we've provided a beautiful (we think) theater, with lots of props and sets and more than a few epic scripts on hand, but ultimately it's entirely up to you what sort of show you want to put on. You sound insightful and experienced in gaming, so I'm guessing that you have more than enough creativity necessary to move some mountains (literally) if need be, and take it from there! Have fun with the fact that the field is WIDE OPEN for your own interpretation! Aereth is a lovely, deadly, smelly, empty, cramped, ancient, burgeoning, colorful, bleak, barren and fertile world of sword, sorcery, legends and forgotten kings...lost civilizations and towering empires, a handful of bandit lords and mystical monasteries, steaming jungles and wind-burned waste and...well, that's a hell of a place to start!
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Post by goodmangames »

Akrasia wrote:I was just hoping for a few maps with smaller scales (not the entire world, but perhaps a few areas that contained a noteworthy number of already-published adventures). I'm not sure what to do, as a DM, with simply a large-scale map for adventures. But the setting sounds too intriguing to pass up.
Well, maybe we'll just have to do another boxed set to give folks like you even more detail. ;)
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