D&D versus C&C

[Jack Spartan]

I didn't mind upgradng to v.3.5 - it really was a good fix for some of the problems in v.3.0 that survived playtesting. However, the idea of upgrading AGAIN to 4E is a huge turn-off. For starters, v.3.5 works nicely (if it ain't broke, don't fix it). Also, the idea of D&D being dumbed down even further is disappointing . . .

(I also refused to upgrade from Shadowrun 3rd Edition to 4th Edition for the same reasons, but that's not particularly relevant to this forum.)

So, since I love learning about new game systems anyway and since so many people around these parts talk up C&C like it was role-playing Nirvana, let's educate those of us (like me) who have no clue what C&C is and don't want to spend the cash on something that might turn out to be a waste of money . . .

1) What is the principle mechanic in the C&C system? What kind of dice? How are rolls modified? Not at all or in a zillion different ways? Is it really complex (like HarnMaster), sort of complex (like Shadowrun or v.3.5), or shockingly simple (like, um . . . well, nothing comes to mind)?

2) How does character creation work? Do you end up with something sadly two-dimensional like PC's from the old D&D red boxed set (my first!) or do they have depth? Is the character system level-based or skill-based?

3) How does the combat system work? Is it stupidly easy to die or is it stupidly easy to rack up enough XP to hit 100th level? What level of tactical detail is provided? Is there a grid or is it freeform?

4) How good is the publisher? Are the books well proof-read? Are they reasonably priced? Does the publisher keep their schedule or constantly delay? Is the flavor material engaging and innovative or just more schlop in an already crowded market? Is the crunch material clear and easy to understand?

5) What do YOU like best about C&C? Why do you play it in preference to other systems and why do you keep spending money on it? Or, why not?

Yes, I know I could go read a bunch of reviews online, but that's just not the same as discussing it with people who play it and know its flaws and quirks as well as it's high points.

And to the talented folks at Goodman Games, please don't be offended by this post. I know you'd love for every D&D gamer to give Dungeoneer a try, but SO many of your DCC posters swear by C&C - there must be a reason . . .

(And Dungeoneer isn't quite here yet.)

Thanks to all for their responses.

[SavageRobby]

So, since I love learning about new game systems anyway and since so many people around these parts talk up C&C like it was role-playing Nirvana, let's educate those of us (like me) who have no clue what C&C is and don't want to spend the cash on something that might turn out to be a waste of money . . .

For starters, I'll say this. C&C will be really familiar to you. Its like a good combination of 1e and 3e. In my eyes, its combines the strengths of each: 1e's simplicity and strong archetypes with 3e unified mechanic and somewhat less abstract combat. But it is a D&Dish game - levels, HP, AC, spell slots, etc. That said, I'll go through your individual points.

1) What is the principle mechanic in the C&C system? What kind of dice? How are rolls modified? Not at all or in a zillion different ways? Is it really complex (like HarnMaster), sort of complex (like Shadowrun or v.3.5), or shockingly simple (like, um . . . well, nothing comes to mind)?

Pretty standard d20 mechanic. d20 + modifiers against a Challenge Base. C&C does have an interesting concept of Primes, which are basically the ability scores that you excel in (even if they're not high), which gives you a bonus (or modifies your challenge base, depending on how you look at it). So a bookworm (ie, an Intelligence Prime) is naturally better at smarts-related things than a non-Intelligence Prime character.

2) How does character creation work? Do you end up with something sadly two-dimensional like PC's from the old D&D red boxed set (my first!) or do they have depth? Is the character system level-based or skill-based?

Like 1e and 3e, its level based, although it uses 1e's non-unified XP table (each class has its own table). Creation is fast, and classes are pretty much cookie cutter - not a lot of customization beyond selecting your primes. However, that has a lot more impact that you think, and more impact than it reads. Also, the guiding principle of C&C is that you are defined more by what you do than what is on your character sheet.

3) How does the combat system work? Is it stupidly easy to die or is it stupidly easy to rack up enough XP to hit 100th level? What level of tactical detail is provided? Is there a grid or is it freeform?

Two different questions. First, combat is similar to 3es in its structure (10 second rounds), but more like 1e in its simplicity (no AoO, for example). As written it does not focus at all on miniatures, and is basically gridless. That said, its easy enough to add minis in.

XP is more like 1e - slower advancement, especially at higher levels. You won't get from 1st to 2nd level in the middle of a single adventure module like you might (or probably would) in 3e.

4) How good is the publisher? Are the books well proof-read? Are they reasonably priced? Does the publisher keep their schedule or constantly delay? Is the flavor material engaging and innovative or just more schlop in an already crowded market? Is the crunch material clear and easy to understand?

Here are definite weak spots. While they editing isn't Mongoose-bad, its not great. They're a small company and release dates slip.

The price point, however, is fantastic. $20 for a PHB, for an example, a price they're sticking with even though their costs in the 3rd printing went up. And the books are organized well and read quickly. Their modules are solid (sorry, GG). Plus, if you're a Gygax fan at all, they're publishing his Castle Zagyg releases. The first one is very good.

5) What do YOU like best about C&C? Why do you play it in preference to other systems and why do you keep spending money on it? Or, why not?

Next to Savage Worlds, C&C is my favorite system and for many of the same reasons. Its fast and simple in and out of combat, easy to houserule and modify without multitudes of unintended consequences, very enabling to players (the lack of feats is construed as limiting by some, while I view it as the reverse - in C&C you're free to try something even if its not written down on your character sheet) and very reminiscent of 1e, without 1e's plethora of contradictions, charts and tables and with most of its flaws removed.


I hope that helps. I just ran DCC 51.5 using C&C this last Friday, and my group had an absolute blast with it. It takes a bit to adjust to the more open mindset, but once everyone did the game really took off. And even though all the players were basically newbies to the system, we covered the entire module in a rollicking 4-5 hour session (including a wild final combat).

[JediOre]

Here are a couple of links that would help.

First is a link to Troll Lord's web site. This is a "why we like C&C" list:

http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/why_play_cnc.html

Second is my thread when I ran a friend through DCC #17 in C&C (sprinkled through out is how the game runs in C&C):

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=834

And lastly is my thread when I ran a different group of characters in Goodman Games modules using C&C:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... php?t=1292

These will give you a lot of ideas as to why some have went to C&C.

I know I did!

[Treebore]

Why didn't you link him to the free Quickstart rules at trolllord.com?

All the basics right there for you. Unfortunately, last time I checked, the adventure map is missing on the Quickstart PDF.

The biggest thing I can point out about C&C is the SIEGE engine. It lets you do anything. Anything! To the point where you don't need feat lists because any character can attempt to do them if the CK allows it. I mean feats like Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind, Energy substitution, etc...

When I run a game I tell my players to look at the feat lists for ideas of what they can atempt to do in game.

So just keep that in mind when your reading the Quickstart. The SIEGE engine covers anything! Most times the CL you have to come up with is the HD of the opponent against whom you are making the atempt against.

[JediOre]

Why didn't you link him to the free Quickstart rules at trolllord.com?

Doh, I forgot about the Quickstart rules.

Thanks for coming to the rescue!