Why are warriors so overpowered?

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UniversalHead
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Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by UniversalHead » Sat May 02, 2020 2:38 pm

I'm sure this has been discussed before - if so, my apologies - but why are warriors so overpowered? I'm playing DCC Lankhmar and my players are level 2. Already, the warrior in the group has d4 (deed die) +1 (strength) +1 (lucky weapon) for a possible +2 to +6 to hit and damage on every blow. It just seems crazy for a 2nd level warrior, and that doesn't even take into account his far superior hit points.

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by GnomeBoy » Sun May 03, 2020 9:55 am

Define "overpowered".

Overpowered in comparison to other games? DCC is not other games.

Overpowered compared to the adventures you're playing? Give us more details of what's happening.

In general, anytime I've encountered someone saying "this bit of the game doesn't work" there's usually some other bit of the game that's not fully implemented, or the dice have been favoring the players, or things along those lines. But I'd be happy to discuss your specific situation...
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Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

UniversalHead
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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by UniversalHead » Sun May 03, 2020 1:39 pm

Overpowered in relation to the other players. My 2nd level player is a walking tank compared to them, with the potential of +6 hit and damage and 2nd level, while the thief and the wizard are very weak in comparison. As a result, all the combat falls on his shoulders. This may seem the right thing to do since he is a warrior, but it unbalances the feel of the game when the party is forced to rely so much on one character in combat situations. I understand the need to make the warrior class more interesting than it traditionally was in the past, but strength, lucky weapon, and deed die bonuses all add up to what feels like, say, a 6th level character adventuring with 2nd level characters. IMHO of course.

I'd love to know if I'm playing something wrong, of course!

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by Raven_Crowking » Mon May 04, 2020 4:38 am

UniversalHead wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 1:39 pm
Overpowered in relation to the other players. My 2nd level player is a walking tank compared to them, with the potential of +6 hit and damage and 2nd level, while the thief and the wizard are very weak in comparison. As a result, all the combat falls on his shoulders. This may seem the right thing to do since he is a warrior, but it unbalances the feel of the game when the party is forced to rely so much on one character in combat situations. I understand the need to make the warrior class more interesting than it traditionally was in the past, but strength, lucky weapon, and deed die bonuses all add up to what feels like, say, a 6th level character adventuring with 2nd level characters. IMHO of course.

I'd love to know if I'm playing something wrong, of course!
Does the wizard not have any spells? The warrior is consistently a tank, but the wizard should be able to call upon vast powers. A high spell check is a battle ender. Even a spell like ropework, which can bind foes, can take down fairly potent foes.

Does the thief not understand backstab? There is a bonus to hit, and any hit is a crit. A thief who hides one round to backstab the next is devastating. Being able to use a Luck Die is devastating - that can be used for damage, or for initiative, or to go up the crit table after a backstab.

A warrior/thief duo, where the warrior uses his Deed Die to set up the thief, is a potent combo.

When I ran an 8th level playtest one year at Gary Con, the thief one-shotted a godlike dragon by using his Luck Die to up the crit result on a backstab.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by thogard » Mon May 04, 2020 6:13 am

There are, perhaps, things the party could do other than run up to foes and attack them. Is melee combat the only option in your game? Do they even out more with ranged attacks?

A "walking tank" may not be the best at running over rooftops or wading through sewers, either (esp. if they're wearing armor). Not to mention navigating traps, solving puzzles, dealing with magical hazards, haggling, etc.

Most importantly, how do the players feel? If someone's feeling left out, provide them with an opportunity to stand out. If their team is working smoothly, though, they may be fine with that. They should at the very least discuss group tactics.

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by UniversalHead » Mon May 04, 2020 12:50 pm

Lots of good advice, thankyou! I'll try some of these things out. Good to get different perspectives.

BTW You can actually listen to these games, I posted a link to the audio for them in a thread in the Lankhmar section.

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by pulsemeat » Wed May 06, 2020 9:34 am

Until I read this post I didn't think warriors were overpowered because I thought the mighty deed die bonus only applied to to-hit rolls. Now that I see it's supposed to add to damage as well I agree with the OP!

As the GM and only person who owns the rulebook, I might just keep playing the way I originally read it...

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed May 06, 2020 10:31 am

For perspective, the game's been out for about 8 years now... Those of us that have been playing it for that long haven't found Warriors overpowered... :wink:
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by Jim Skach » Wed May 06, 2020 1:46 pm

GnomeBoy wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 10:31 am
For perspective, the game's been out for about 8 years now... Those of us that have been playing it for that long haven't found Warriors overpowered... :wink:
Some even longer :wink: :lol:

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed May 06, 2020 6:02 pm

Jim Skach wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:46 pm
GnomeBoy wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 10:31 am
For perspective, the game's been out for about 8 years now... Those of us that have been playing it for that long haven't found Warriors overpowered... :wink:
Some even longer :wink: :lol:
True. There are a few of us with pre-Beta XP... :twisted:
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com

Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by Harley Stroh » Thu May 14, 2020 10:50 am

This is a good critique --- compared to other D&D-like things a DCC warrior can appear off the charts. (And we haven't even factored in the creative potential for Might Deeds yet!)

But I'd offer a reframing:

In other RPGs the fighter / warrior is often the base that all other classes build from. An ogre = 4 HD fighter. A thief = a sneaky warrior with a few less HP. The barkeep? He is a retired 4th level fighter. The base is the OD&D "fighting-man," and all other classes derive from that template.

In DCC RPG, the warrior PC = Conan / Fafhrd (or your pulp variant). So every town guard you cross is *not* a warrior. And, likely, Conan can smack 4 guards down in battle and then flee by jumping out the tower window (mighty deed check) when another 12 are summoned. A DCC RPG warrior can pull this off, while Gandalf and Cudgel hide behind the tapestry.

An NPC army might not have a single soldier equal to a mere third level PC warrior. A 5th level warrior could very well be treading the jeweled thrones of Aereth under his sandaled feet.

(But woe to your warrior --- and the rest of the PCs --- when they cross that sorcerer with charm person!)

====

Related, Daniel did a great write up of Conan as a DCC warrior here:
https://ravencrowking.blogspot.com/2015 ... arzan.html

//H
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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by catseye yellow » Mon May 18, 2020 7:12 am

high level regular d&d fighter is more reliant on magical items and "buff" spell than DCC warrior. in that regard DCC warrior is also more conan than his d&d counterpart.

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herecomethejudge
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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by herecomethejudge » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:40 pm

I don't think they're overpowered, but I see what you're saying. IMO they make up for, say, a wizard's frailty and unreliability in battle though, so there's that to think about.

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Re: Why are warriors so overpowered?

Post by Gameogre » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:41 am

UniversalHead wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 1:39 pm
while the thief and the wizard are very weak in comparison.
Made me cough out my coffee.
We need some sort of "Do not read this while drinking" Warning.


To add something more constructive...

Keep playing. Eventually each class's abilities start to shine. Warriors are indeed Mighty! They however do not surpass the other class's. I think I have cycled through thinking every single class is overpowered and needed to be toned down. Right now Halflings are on the hotseat for me but I resist the urge to meddle with the class.

For the longest Time Wizard held the title of the most OP class in my games.......then we had this Thief come along and........

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