Goodman Games and 4E
Moderators: DJ LaBoss, finarvyn, Harley Stroh
- xredjasonx
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:12 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I think that the decision made by Goodman Games to support 4E will definitely pay off, in both the sort and long term.
I'm not going to engage in a full on Edition Wars debate here, but I am having more fun with 4E than I have any other edition of D&D and am looking forward to next decade of 4E supported material. Have fun playing a slow, clunky system, I'm over it.
At our game last night were comparing the character sheets of my 3.5 12th level Warlade (Book of Nine Swords) to the converted 12th level Fighter (Swordmaster Paragon Path), and laughing quite a bit.
I'm not going to engage in a full on Edition Wars debate here, but I am having more fun with 4E than I have any other edition of D&D and am looking forward to next decade of 4E supported material. Have fun playing a slow, clunky system, I'm over it.
At our game last night were comparing the character sheets of my 3.5 12th level Warlade (Book of Nine Swords) to the converted 12th level Fighter (Swordmaster Paragon Path), and laughing quite a bit.
- Jengenritz
- Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:44 pm
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
And we shouldn't. I doubt anything any of us could say would actually add anything useful to an already well-developed argument brewing on any number of other boards.I'm not going to engage in a full on Edition Wars debate here
We strive for comity here at the Goodman Games boards, and while that means we lack the torrent of posts that accompany a flame war, it also means we don't have flame wars. I call that a "win."
Hamakto and xredjasonx have expressed their opinions, as we are all free to do. I hope that it ends there.
Co-Author: The Almanac of the Endless Traders, DCC #13, DCC #29, DCC #49, DCC #51, DCC #52, DCC #63
Author: DCC #55: Isle of the Sea Drake, DCC #61: Citadel of the Corruptor, more to come....
Author: DCC #55: Isle of the Sea Drake, DCC #61: Citadel of the Corruptor, more to come....
- xredjasonx
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:12 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Agreed.
- JediOre
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 1127
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: In a galaxy far, far, away (Missouri)
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Regardless of the edition, my hope is this company will continue to produce quality adventures.
I see nothing to diminish this hope.
I see nothing to diminish this hope.
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
That is most true. I'm going to start soon Castle Whiterock in 4th Ed. Whhen my personnal isues will allow me to actually play/run (And again I'm really sorry for GenCon ) I'll post the adventure of my players and my adaptation.JediOre wrote:Regardless of the edition, my hope is this company will continue to produce quality adventures.
I see nothing to diminish this hope.
Whatever the system, as long as we get the DCC!
Hyb'
- Jengenritz
- Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:44 pm
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Don't sweat it, Hybban! We'll sacrifice a party to your honor!And again I'm really sorry for GenCon
Co-Author: The Almanac of the Endless Traders, DCC #13, DCC #29, DCC #49, DCC #51, DCC #52, DCC #63
Author: DCC #55: Isle of the Sea Drake, DCC #61: Citadel of the Corruptor, more to come....
Author: DCC #55: Isle of the Sea Drake, DCC #61: Citadel of the Corruptor, more to come....
- xredjasonx
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:12 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Plus, even for those sticking with the previous editions, the new Systems-Neutral RPG Sourcebooks look like they're gonna be great!
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I hope you will. I'm so sad I won't be able to meet all the great people from GG...Jengenritz wrote:Don't sweat it, Hybban! We'll sacrifice a party to your honor!
Can I hope to get the tournament module dedicaced by everybody?
That would be awesome. I just cross my finger to be able to be there for the next tournament.
Hyb' coming back from the pub to lessen his sadness...
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:50 pm
- Location: Elfrida, Arizona
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Well Goodman has officially announced it is going GSL. Unless the economy, and therefore my finances, improve, my DCC purchases will be dramatically lower in 4E.
Castles and Crusades is my game of choice!
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Conversely, I'm very anxious to buy as many 4e modules as you guys put out.
- JediOre
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 1127
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: In a galaxy far, far, away (Missouri)
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I'm curious to see how well the 4th edition rule set, as expressed in adventures, will convert to Castles & Crusades.
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:50 pm
- Location: Elfrida, Arizona
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
JediOre wrote:I'm curious to see how well the 4th edition rule set, as expressed in adventures, will convert to Castles & Crusades.
Well, according to my CK for our 4E try out game, it will be pretty easy to convert 4E to C&C. He thinks it will be easier to convert than 3E is. He is judging based on the Shadowfell (?) module from WOTC. I think that word is in its title, anyways.
None of us like 4E enough to even think of going 4E, though. Two of us even think GURPS 4E is a better rules set.
Castles and Crusades is my game of choice!
-
- Far-Sighted Wanderer
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:11 pm
- Contact:
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
From what I've seen of the required 4e stat block (type of critter x how many) one could just plug their preferred edition or system monster book of choice in it and hit go.Treebore wrote:JediOre wrote:I'm curious to see how well the 4th edition rule set, as expressed in adventures, will convert to Castles & Crusades.
Well, according to my CK for our 4E try out game, it will be pretty easy to convert 4E to C&C. He thinks it will be easier to convert than 3E is. He is judging based on the Shadowfell (?) module from WOTC. I think that word is in its title, anyways.
None of us like 4E enough to even think of going 4E, though. Two of us even think GURPS 4E is a better rules set.
Treebore's right about an earlier post though. There's not one single feat, skill, or ability that cant be replicated in C&C from 1e to 4e with the siege engine. This, by the simple expedient of there being no rules that tell you can't.
Peter B
Castles & Crusades and Lejendary Adventure Artist
Castles & Crusades and Lejendary Adventure Artist
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
From what I've seen and heard from others, 4E is a reversion further back than even 1st ed. Its basically Chainmail, the tabletop game that D&D evolved from when player's wanted to be able to do more than just bust into a room and kill all the mooks. From what I see, while 4E is great for plain basic dungeon crawling, its going to suck at the Role-playing element. The Interaction between the player's Characters and DM's NPCs has been reduced to mere tactical combat.
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Honestly I don't agree I've come to see 4E as a streamlining rather than simplification. Now ymmv and so will others but 4E has IMHO more of the classic spirit than 3.x ever did.Raptor wrote:From what I've seen and heard from others, 4E is a reversion further back than even 1st ed. Its basically Chainmail, the tabletop game that D&D evolved from when player's wanted to be able to do more than just bust into a room and kill all the mooks. From what I see, while 4E is great for plain basic dungeon crawling, its going to suck at the Role-playing element. The Interaction between the player's Characters and DM's NPCs has been reduced to mere tactical combat.
Please don't mistake me I like 3.x and own every wotc book printed and quite a few by other companies, and I currently play a dwarven abjurer in one FR game and a cleric of Kelemvor in another, but recently the flaws that I perceive (notice emphasis here please) in the way the game plays is souring it for me. At the moment my admittedly limited 4E exposure seems to solve my problems with the games.
With 4E I don't see a reversion to chainmail I see a harkening back to the glory days of AD&D and adventures like TOEE, the falcon trilogy etc.
And it's worth repeating that this is just my opinion.
The beauty of the soul shines out when a man bears with composure one heavy mischance after another, not because he does not feel them, but because he is a man of high and heroic temper"
"Birthright" on the WOTC forums or "Birthright" at The Piazza.
"Birthright" on the WOTC forums or "Birthright" at The Piazza.
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:50 pm
- Location: Elfrida, Arizona
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I don't know, 4E certainly doesn't look anything like classic OD&D, or even play like it. Bottom line for me is I am not excited by 4E. I haven't even found a rule I want to steal for the game I do play.
I have no problem with simplicity. I quit 3E because it was too complex for my tastes. I run C&C because I like simplicity. Simplicity does not equal bad, so 4E being simplified certainly doesn't mean bad. What is bad, for me, is that 4E didn't grab or excite me. I wish it did.
Those of you who like/love 4E look at ti from my perspective, how would you feel if you didn't like 4E and the "D&D crowd" was leaving you out? So I don't feel good or happy that I don't like 4E, I really wish I did.
I'm just glad I am lucky enough to have a good system to play and several groups of people with which to play it. If I were in a situation where everyone else only plays 4E...
I have no problem with simplicity. I quit 3E because it was too complex for my tastes. I run C&C because I like simplicity. Simplicity does not equal bad, so 4E being simplified certainly doesn't mean bad. What is bad, for me, is that 4E didn't grab or excite me. I wish it did.
Those of you who like/love 4E look at ti from my perspective, how would you feel if you didn't like 4E and the "D&D crowd" was leaving you out? So I don't feel good or happy that I don't like 4E, I really wish I did.
I'm just glad I am lucky enough to have a good system to play and several groups of people with which to play it. If I were in a situation where everyone else only plays 4E...
Castles and Crusades is my game of choice!
- xredjasonx
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:12 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I can't get enough of 4E, my group is playing twice a week now instead of once. I'm running Sellswords this Monday and I'm so excited!!!!
- xredjasonx
- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:12 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Here's an article worth checking out:Treebore wrote:I don't know, 4E certainly doesn't look anything like classic OD&D, or even play like it. Bottom line for me is I am not excited by 4E. I haven't even found a rule I want to steal for the game I do play.
I have no problem with simplicity. I quit 3E because it was too complex for my tastes. I run C&C because I like simplicity. Simplicity does not equal bad, so 4E being simplified certainly doesn't mean bad. What is bad, for me, is that 4E didn't grab or excite me. I wish it did.
Those of you who like/love 4E look at ti from my perspective, how would you feel if you didn't like 4E and the "D&D crowd" was leaving you out? So I don't feel good or happy that I don't like 4E, I really wish I did.
I'm just glad I am lucky enough to have a good system to play and several groups of people with which to play it. If I were in a situation where everyone else only plays 4E...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dued/20080911
-
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:50 pm
- Location: Elfrida, Arizona
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
Yeah, I just read that via a thread on ENWorld about it. I don't really relate because I have been playing 4E. It simply is not grabbing me or getting me excited like the prior editions did. Frankly th eonly reason I am still playing the 4E game is because its a good group, and we have had good roleplay, something I have seen being an issue for others, but not us. RP comes as easy in 4E as it always has in D&D.xredjasonx wrote:Here's an article worth checking out:Treebore wrote:I don't know, 4E certainly doesn't look anything like classic OD&D, or even play like it. Bottom line for me is I am not excited by 4E. I haven't even found a rule I want to steal for the game I do play.
I have no problem with simplicity. I quit 3E because it was too complex for my tastes. I run C&C because I like simplicity. Simplicity does not equal bad, so 4E being simplified certainly doesn't mean bad. What is bad, for me, is that 4E didn't grab or excite me. I wish it did.
Those of you who like/love 4E look at ti from my perspective, how would you feel if you didn't like 4E and the "D&D crowd" was leaving you out? So I don't feel good or happy that I don't like 4E, I really wish I did.
I'm just glad I am lucky enough to have a good system to play and several groups of people with which to play it. If I were in a situation where everyone else only plays 4E...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dued/20080911
I do understand, agree with, and definitely experienced the DM/Player relationship, and I am glad he feels that relationship is back in 4E. For me, and the 12 people I regularly game with, 4E simply is not grabbing us. Its a "good" game, but it is not "the best" like most of us are accustomed to thinking of D&D as being.
So we'll be sticking with our C&C/Alternity/LA/GURPS/L5R/Shadowrun/etc... games. 4E simply is not bringing us back into the fold.
Castles and Crusades is my game of choice!
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I may not agree with your POV but thats cool, everyones different.Treebore wrote:Yeah, I just read that via a thread on ENWorld about it. I don't really relate because I have been playing 4E. It simply is not grabbing me or getting me excited like the prior editions did. Frankly th eonly reason I am still playing the 4E game is because its a good group, and we have had good roleplay, something I have seen being an issue for others, but not us. RP comes as easy in 4E as it always has in D&D.xredjasonx wrote:Here's an article worth checking out:Treebore wrote:I don't know, 4E certainly doesn't look anything like classic OD&D, or even play like it. Bottom line for me is I am not excited by 4E. I haven't even found a rule I want to steal for the game I do play.
I have no problem with simplicity. I quit 3E because it was too complex for my tastes. I run C&C because I like simplicity. Simplicity does not equal bad, so 4E being simplified certainly doesn't mean bad. What is bad, for me, is that 4E didn't grab or excite me. I wish it did.
Those of you who like/love 4E look at ti from my perspective, how would you feel if you didn't like 4E and the "D&D crowd" was leaving you out? So I don't feel good or happy that I don't like 4E, I really wish I did.
I'm just glad I am lucky enough to have a good system to play and several groups of people with which to play it. If I were in a situation where everyone else only plays 4E...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dued/20080911
I do understand, agree with, and definitely experienced the DM/Player relationship, and I am glad he feels that relationship is back in 4E. For me, and the 12 people I regularly game with, 4E simply is not grabbing us. Its a "good" game, but it is not "the best" like most of us are accustomed to thinking of D&D as being.
So we'll be sticking with our C&C/Alternity/LA/GURPS/L5R/Shadowrun/etc... games. 4E simply is not bringing us back into the fold.
And if I could find a decent Alternity group my current group (of 20+ years) would be **** out of luck in getting me to play anything else
The beauty of the soul shines out when a man bears with composure one heavy mischance after another, not because he does not feel them, but because he is a man of high and heroic temper"
"Birthright" on the WOTC forums or "Birthright" at The Piazza.
"Birthright" on the WOTC forums or "Birthright" at The Piazza.
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
So which product lines are going to 4Ed, and when? I Know your already doing the DCC line, but what about Dragonmech or Etherscope? Will we still be able to get 3.5 versions?
Answers to these questions would put my mind (and many other's, I imagine) at ease.
Answers to these questions would put my mind (and many other's, I imagine) at ease.
-
- Hard-Bitten Adventurer
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:26 am
- Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I couldn't agree more. And I have read through 4E (and played it) so I can actually come to a judgement. Whatever 4E is, it doesn't hold that "D&D feel" anymore. It is a decent table-top skirmish game, though. So if that's what you're after or if that's what you consider "roleplaying" then 4E might work alright for you. But definitely not for me, not by a wide margin!The game at its outset is simplier as there is a universal mechanic for everything. But in the long run, I think that simplicity will actually detract from the longevity of the product.
Why do I say that? To keep thinks simple they further abstracted the game to a point where what little sense of realisim that is left in the game went right out the door. The 'required' cinematic feel to the game (i.e. minions, characers = superheros) runs contrary to 30 years of DnD history. It is easier to list what DID NOT change from 3 to 4 than to list what changed.
Some people say that is a good thing since DnD sucked rotten eggs. But all of those things are what made the game what it is and it drew the millions of players to it. 4e is just another game system out there, but it does not look like, talk like, or act like any version of DnD that I know. It is not even an enhancement to the DnD game engine.
I have tried to build a character with 4E that proves wrong what most opponents of 4E are saying, namely that all characters are alike and that they are always heavily combat-oriented. And however I tried to prove them wrong, I just couldn't. Tried to build a cleric that is not a flashy, holy radiance spilling and butt-kicking healing surge provider - but I couldn't. 4E offers you cutouts to choose from. But it is not letting you build organic, diverse characters (as far as a class-based system allows, anyway).
From the DCC point of view I reckon that they will adapt to 4E rather easily. But since DCCs were not--contrary to their self-imposed "no npcs not to be killed" blurp--mere kill'n'loot scenarios I can imagine that some other aspects will fall by the wayside in 4E. May Goodman Games prove me wrong on that.
The lucky guy who gets to translate DCCs into German!
Done so far: DCC#1, DCC #11, DCC #28, DCC #17, DCC #17.5
Done so far: DCC#1, DCC #11, DCC #28, DCC #17, DCC #17.5
- Jeff LaSala
- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:05 am
- Location: NYC
- Contact:
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
I will agree with much of this; there's a lot of improvements with 4E, but also a lot of losses. That said...
I think 4E offers only cutouts with the initial core rulebooks. I think subsequent books, both from WotC and other companies (*cough* Goodman *cough*) will continue to expand your options so that you can make a character that doesn't resemble all others of its type.Tried to build a cleric that is not a flashy, holy radiance spilling and butt-kicking healing surge provider - but I couldn't. 4E offers you cutouts to choose from.
Goodman Games: DCCs: #29, #31, #35, #48, #49, #51; Hero's Handbooks: Dragonborn, Tieflings; Level Up
Wizards of the Coast: The Darkwood Mask
Blindsided Books: Savant
Ashlock.org; NY Speculative Fiction Examiner
Wizards of the Coast: The Darkwood Mask
Blindsided Books: Savant
Ashlock.org; NY Speculative Fiction Examiner
-
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:02 am
- Location: On the run.
- Contact:
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
In my opinion (and only that) D&D editions have always trended towards complexity. Remember the Mentzer Red Box? Contrast that simplicity (arguably cookie-cutter) against the weapons mastery rules we had in the Masters boxed set. Same, too, 2nd Edition evolving into kits. The game (and maybe all systems) seems to go from simple --> advanced --> convoluted and broken.
In my mind, the simplicity of 4E gives us that many more years before it breaks. We have some products on the way that deliver some of the things you're asking for, Argamae, but when in doubt, do what we all did as kids and just make it up. Why wait for non-combat rules when you can do your own?
Now the logical response to that is, "The why should I move to a new system when my old one works just fine?" and I respect that. But from my personal experience running games at home and on the road, I have a hard time looking back. But that's just me. You should play the game that speaks to your playing style.
//H
In my mind, the simplicity of 4E gives us that many more years before it breaks. We have some products on the way that deliver some of the things you're asking for, Argamae, but when in doubt, do what we all did as kids and just make it up. Why wait for non-combat rules when you can do your own?
Now the logical response to that is, "The why should I move to a new system when my old one works just fine?" and I respect that. But from my personal experience running games at home and on the road, I have a hard time looking back. But that's just me. You should play the game that speaks to your playing style.
//H
The lucky guy who got to write some Dungeon Crawl Classics.
DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.
DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.
Re: Goodman Games and 4E
My father used to ask me: "why buy these expensive rulebooks when you can make your own rules?", and his wife countered: "well then, if you need a new pair of socks, why don't you knit it yourself?".Harley Stroh wrote:Why wait for non-combat rules when you can do your own?
Not everyone can make rules that work, much less - that are exciting and create interesting situations. We place our hopes on pro-gamedesigners for that %)
Just some hours ago my kobold artisan faced the fact that there are no trap creation rules in 4E, and GM permitted only the pitfall trap (because it's level 1, like the kobold) and those which count as terrain features. And the hanging chandelier. It would be more exciting if there was a system to it, a strategy, a representation of my character's ability...
...Yeah, I know, usual players don't need this in usual games. But still, I feel like my ambition was... unsupported or dismissed or something...